20250416-forever-ago-mayo
Andy Lund for APM Studios
Hey Smash Boom Besties! Today we're bringing you an extra special episode from our sister podcast Forever Ago! You’ll remember debater Joy Dolo from so many debates including the spooky Ghosts vs. Zombies and the hilarious Halloween Candy Grab Bag. Turns out, Joy also made an entire Forever Ago episode about her one true nemesis – MAYONNAISE! Joy faces down her least favorite food to learn about the origins of this very popular condiment, and co-host Maya calls in Splendid Table’s Francis Lam to help Joy open her mind to mayo. Plus, a gloopy game of First Things First!
We’ll be back next week with a brand-new debate – Frankenstein’s Monster vs. Frosty the Snowman. Until then, enjoy this special episode of Forever Ago!
Also… do you have your Smarty Pass yet? Get yours today for just $5/month (or $45/year) and get bonus episodes every month, and ad-free versions of every episode of Brains On, Smash Boom Best, Moment of Um and Forever Ago. Visit www.smartypass.org to get your Smarty Pass today. As an added bonus, your Smarty Pass will grant you access to a super special debate starring Sanden and Molly!
Audio Transcript
Download transcript (PDF)
ANNA WEGGEL: Hey, Smash Boom besties. Producer Anna Weggel here to tell you all about an extra special episode, we're bringing you today from the awesome history podcast, Forever Ago. You'll remember debater Joy Dolo from so many debates, including the spooky ghosts versus zombies and the hilarious Halloween candy grab bag. Turns out, Joy also made an entire Forever Ago episode about her one true nemesis, nannies. It's a super fun episode and we're so excited to share it with you.
We'll be back next week with a brand new debate, Frankenstein's monster versus Frosty the snowman. Until then, enjoy this special episode of Forever Ago, and thanks for listening.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
JOY DOLO: (SINGING) H-O-T T-O G-O
I don't think I like mayo
It makes me uncomfortable
How much I despise mayo
AUTOMATED VOICE: You've got mail.
JOY DOLO: Oh, doth mine ears deceive me? No, they doth not. I've got Forever Ago mail. Yes! I'll have to finish my very original anti-mayonnaise song later. Hmm. Let's see. Oh, it's an email from a listener named Maya from San Diego, California. The subject line of the email is, "The History of Mayo?
[DRAMATIC MUSIC]
No!
[MOCK SOBS]
No! No! This can't be right. Oh, I know, I'll text Maya and ask her in person.
[TAPPING]
[TEXT TONE]
[KNOCKING]
Whoa. That was fast.
LISTENER: Hi, Joy.
JOY DOLO: Maya, tell me it isn't true. "The History of Mayo?" Why are you doing this to me?
LISTENER: Listen, I know what you're thinking, but just hear me out. How about I read you my question?
JOY DOLO: Mm, OK. Go ahead.
LISTENER: OK. I decided to send in an idea for a podcast episode for Forever Ago. I chose this especially because it's Joy's worst nightmare, arch nemesis, and mortal enemy, mayonnaise.
JOY DOLO: Ugh.
LISTENER: I think Joy Dolo is super awesome.
JOY DOLO: Aw.
LISTENER: But I think the episode would be super amusing, with all of Joy's disgusted reactions.
JOY DOLO: Ugh. Who said, I make disgusted noises? Ugh. [SHUDDERS]
LISTENER: I used to love mayonnaise, but now I'm low-key against it, so I think I would get Joy's OK. Also, if Joy Dolo didn't actually hate mayonnaise and it was just to give Forever Ago more character and humor, I will be completely and utterly heartbroken, and I think every other Forever Ago fan would be, too. But thank you so much for listening to my idea.
JOY DOLO: Maya. I assure you, this is not an act. Ever since I was a kid, I've always despised mayo. The gunky texture, the sour taste, the smell of rotting--
LISTENER: I get it, I get it. So can we do an episode about mayo? You always say we should send in our episode ideas.
JOY DOLO: I do, I do, and we never shy away from the hard stuff here at Forever Ago.
LISTENER: OMG, OMG, OMG.
JOY DOLO: Come on, Maya. Let's explore the history of-- [GULPS] the history of, ugh-- the history of mayo.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Welcome to Forever Ago from APM Studios. I'm Joy Dolo, and my co-host today is Maya from San Diego, California. Hi, Maya.
LISTENER: Hi, Joy. Forever Ago is a non-profit public radio program.
JOY DOLO: Which means we rely on support from our listeners to keep the show going. There are lots of ways you can support the show.
LISTENER: You can donate, become a Smartie Pass subscriber, or buy our merch.
JOY DOLO: The T-shirt has my face on it. Head to ForeverAgo.org to show your support.
LISTENER: Thank you.
JOY DOLO: Now, Maya, [SIGHS] I would like to say I'm excited, but I'm not. In fact, I'm not sure I can go on. Literally, everyone knows Mayo and I are not BFFs. We're not even Fs. In fact, we're Es, for enemies. I honestly don't know if I can do this episode.
LISTENER: But Joy, you're an actor.
JOY DOLO: I am.
LISTENER: And you've done some tough roles. You've played fruit in a fruit salad, a tree and a forest--
JOY DOLO: And I did not make a sound. Acting.
LISTENER: So why not use your acting skills to get in the frame of mind of someone who likes mayo?
JOY DOLO: Ugh. [SHUDDERS]
LISTENER: OK, fine. Someone who tolerates and is curious about mayo.
JOY DOLO: [GROANS]
LISTENER: Act, Joy. Act. Acting is about empathy, deeper understanding through imagination.
JOY DOLO: OK, fine. You talked me into it, Maya. Let me just do some quick warm-ups to get into character. Mayo is a cool condiment. Mayo is a cool condiment. Mayo is a cool condiment. My mama mixes Mayo and mustard. My mama mixes mayo and mustard. [FLUBS LIPS] [VOCALIZING] OK, OK, OK. [SIGHS] Let's do it.
LISTENER: You got this Joy.
JOY DOLO: I'm Joy Dolo, and I tolerate mayo. And this is Maya, which is just one letter different than the word, mayo. But we won't hold that against her. So, Maya, you used to like mayo. What was your favorite way to eat it?
LISTENER: My dad makes all the food in the house. My mom makes lots of food, too. But my dad makes the authentic Lebanese food. And he makes the authentic Lebanese cabbage salad. But also, he will mix up his recipes a little bit. So he used to put mayo in the cabbage salad, and it's actually really good. I still kind of like it, but I used to also mayo in my turkey sandwiches and stuff. I don't anymore. I also don't eat turkey because I'm vegetarian now.
JOY DOLO: Ah. Why did you start to dislike it? Did it do something to you?
LISTENER: Yes, it did. It betrayed me.
JOY DOLO: Oh, no.
LISTENER: I got sick of it. There were too many mayo sandwiches, and I'm like, I'm done with you, mayo.
JOY DOLO: [LAUGHS] Just write it off. I hear you. That sounds very much like my story. OK, so how would you describe mayo for someone who hasn't had it before?
LISTENER: OK, it depends on what kind of mayo you have, but it's like an almost neutral white, thickish cream, but it's a little bit sweet.
JOY DOLO: Mm. There's something about the texture and something about it that I just have never liked, but it's also-- it's everywhere, right? Mayonnaise is a simple sauce made of a few key ingredients.
LISTENER: Egg yolks.
JOY DOLO: Some kind of oil.
LISTENER: Some kind of acid, like lemon juice or vinegar.
JOY DOLO: And sometimes seasoning, like maybe garlic or mustard.
LISTENER: That's it.
JOY DOLO: Because this recipe is so simple, it's been around for a long time. As long as these ingredients have existed, someone was probably mixing them together.
LISTENER: Emphasis on, mixing. In order to get the consistency just right, you have to stir and stir and stir and stir, adding the oil and lemon juice a little bit at a time.
JOY DOLO: But as far as historians can tell, the name, mayonnaise, wasn't used until about 200 to 300 years ago. Who came up with that name anyway? It sounds French. Is it French for, jiggly white sauce of my nightmares?
LISTENER: The, aise, part of the word is definitely French.
JOY DOLO: Yeah, it can mean, comes from.
LISTENER: But the, mayo, part of the name-- no one can agree on where that part came from.
JOY DOLO: That's because no one wants to take credit for it. Hey, oh! [LAUGHS] Can I get a high five?
[CRICKETS CHIRPING]
No? Nobody?
LISTENER: One idea is that Mayo is named after a city in Spain called Mahón.
JOY DOLO: In Spanish, a source from there would be called, salsa mayonesa.
LISTENER: Another idea is that the name comes from the French word, [FRENCH], meaning to stir.
JOY DOLO: Mayonnaise. Makes sense, since you have to stir it a lot to make it.
LISTENER: And others thought that it might come from the old French word, [FRENCH], which means egg yolk.
JOY DOLO: [FRENCH] naise, another contender, since the egg yolks set it apart from other sauces.
LISTENER: And there's another theory that it's actually named after a French town called Bayonne.
JOY DOLO: Bayonnaise. That's how I say, mayonnaise, when I have a cold. Please pass the bayonnaise, away from me.
LISTENER: But no matter the etymology or the origin of the word, mayonnaise is here to stay.
JOY DOLO: It's eaten all over the world.
LISTENER: Russia is the country that eats the most mayo, using it in salads with herring, beets, or potatoes.
JOY DOLO: And of all the condiments, for some reason it's the most popular one in the US, which is absurd since mustard is right there.
LISTENER: It's so popular here that people have very real feelings about which brand of mayonnaise is best.
JOY DOLO: OK, as a passionate holder of mayonnaise opinions, I can't wait to hear about that. But first, I need a break, please. So let's play--
[MUSIC PLAYING]
First Things First.
[FUTURISTIC MUSIC]
JOY DOLO: This is the game where we take three things from history and try to put them, in order of which came first, second, and most recent in time. Today's three things are gloopy things-- Augustus Gloop from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Gloppy from the board game Candyland, and instant oatmeal. [SIGHS] OK, Maya, which do you think came first? Which came second? And which came most recently in history? Actually, first of all, have you seen Charlie and the Chocolate Factory?
LISTENER: I have read the book and seen the movie. Augustus Gloop is the one who eats a lot of chocolate, right?
JOY DOLO: Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
LISTENER: OK, so I know that's pretty old because Roald Dahl is a classic, but the next one-- instant oatmeal. I love instant oatmeal. But I cannot remember the last one you said. What was it?
JOY DOLO: Oh, yeah. Gloppy from the board game Candyland.
LISTENER: I'm going to go Augustus Gloop 'cause I feel like Roald Dahl did not get his inspiration from Candyland.
JOY DOLO: [SIGHS]
LISTENER: I feel like I can't imagine Roald Dahl playing Candyland. And without those vibes going on, I can only imagine that he wasn't alive when Candyland was invented. Wait, actually, I didn't even think about the oatmeal. Oh, this is so hard. Ah! I'm going to say oatmeal first, 'cause I feel like that could have been made with really simple ingredients.
And we learned about-- in school, about the Neolithic period and agriculture. And I feel like instant oatmeal is really simple. And I feel like it's something that could have come really early. And then I'm going to go Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Augustus Gloop, and then I'm going to go Candyland.
JOY DOLO: Ooh, OK.
LISTENER: I never get these right. I'm so scared.
JOY DOLO: Listen, those are some great guesses. I would actually guess that order, too. So we have instant oatmeal, Augustus Gloop, and then Gloppy from Candyland?
LISTENER: Yeah.
JOY DOLO: Okey-dokey. We'll hear the answers at the end of the episode, right after the credits.
LISTENER: So stick around.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
JOY DOLO: Hey, Forever Ago friends, we love hearing from our listeners, and we want to know what topic you would like to explore on the show. Is there an invention or time period you'd like to learn more about? Maya, what's something from history you're curious about?
LISTENER: Etymology, definitely how language was invented. I feel like that would be really cool. And writing, but can't have writing without language.
JOY DOLO: The history of writing and language. I love that idea. Listeners, if you have a question about history, record yourself asking your question, and send it to us at ForeverAgo.org/contact. And while you're there, you can send us fan art, like maybe a picture of me eating a mustard-heavy sandwich with a bunch of mustard on it, without any mayo, maybe? That's ForeverAgo.org/contact.
LISTENER: And keep listening.
ANNOUNCER 1: Brains On Universe is a family of podcasts for kids and their adults. Since you're a fan of Forever Ago, you'll love the other shows in our universe. Come on, let's explore.
[ROCKET ENGINE ROARING]
ALIEN: It's alien exercise hour. Hiya, hoo, ha! While I stretch my snoodles and bounce on my trampoline--
[BOING]
--I'll listen to a new podcast. Ha-ha! [LAUGHS] I'm going to try Smash Boom Best, the best debate podcast ever.
[ELECTRONIC SOUND]
ANNOUNCER 1: Tell us why Alice in Wonderland has such grand command.
RAPPER: Drop the beat.
[HIP-HOP MUSIC]
Ladies and gentlemen, esteemed judge of Smash Boom Best. I'd like to start with a few rhymes. Uh, yo. Catch me in the rabbit hole, dazzled by a magic show by the--
ALIEN: Zorb! Come back here, podcast.
[ELECTRONIC SOUND]
Must listen to Smash Boom Best now!
ANNOUNCER 1: Listen to Smash Boom Best, wherever you get your podcasts.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
JOY DOLO: You're listening to Forever Ago. I'm Joy.
LISTENER: And I'm Maya. Today we're talking about mayo.
JOY DOLO: Mayonnaise is a [CLEARS THROAT] tasty sauce made of egg yolks, oil, some kind of acid, and maybe some seasoning.
LISTENER: We don't really know where the name came from, but it is stuck and spread all over the world.
JOY DOLO: It's a spread that's spread. So for a long time, this sauce was made by hand, putting all the ingredients together and stirring them up.
LISTENER: But now, instead of making it at home, most people buy it at the grocery store.
JOY DOLO: And people feel very strongly about which brand of mayo is the best.
LISTENER: Yeah, arguments over mayo brands can get pretty intense.
[ROCK MUSIC]
ANNOUNCER 2: You've heard of WWE, World Wrestling Entertainment, where wrestlers like John Cena and the Rock take to the ring and wow audiences? Now, get ready for the WME, World Mayo Eaters, where top mayos take to the tongue and entice taste buds. Stomachs, get ready to rumble.
[BELL DINGING]
JOY DOLO: Can you smell what Eugenia Duke is stirring? It's mayonnaise.
ANNOUNCER 2: Eugenia Duke, inventor of Duke's mayonnaise, Queen of the South.
JOY DOLO: During World War I, I started selling sandwiches to soldiers in training in South Carolina. They loved my sandwiches, but especially the mayo. So I started bottling it and selling it. Now my mayo whip is a premier dip.
MAN 1: Ha. Your mayo is too tangy.
ANNOUNCER 2: Richard Hellmann, inventor of Hellmann's Mayonnaise, King of the Northeast, has entered the ring.
MAN 1: I came to the US from Germany, ran a deli in New York City, and started bottling and selling my very special mayonnaise around the same time as the Duchess over here. Hellmann's is here to lay the smackdown on your sandwiches.
JOY DOLO: Too tangy? Too tangy? Well, you're boring mayo is a meh, no.
MAN 2: Boring? Tangy? You both clearly need a little sweetness from this cutie pie.
ANNOUNCER 2: Oh, my. It's Japanese mayo inventor Toichiro Nakashima. This mayo match-up is now officially a battle royale.
MAN 2 I first tasted mayonnaise while working in the US. Then around the same time as these two jokers, I started bottling my own special mayo in Japan. Kewpie. This sauce is boss.
MAN 1: Kewpie? More like a'poopy.
JOY DOLO: Richard, bless your heart. You think your mayonnaise is better than his?
MAN 1: [SCOFFS] I know it is.
MAN 2: Why don't you call your mommy and ask for more umami?
ANNOUNCER 2: Which mayo maker will come out on top? We don't know. It's highly subjective.
[ROCK MUSIC]
JOY DOLO: I decline to take part in this taste test, but I do love a good rivalry.
LISTENER: There are real differences between these males. Kewpie uses rice vinegar, more egg yolks, and yeast extract, giving it that big savory flavor, a.k.a. umami, plus some tangy sweetness, too.
JOY DOLO: Duke's uses cider vinegar and doesn't add any sugar, making it the mayor of tangy town.
LISTENER: And Hellmann's prides itself on its mildness and thick, creamy texture.
JOY DOLO: OK. So all these super popular mayos started being bottled around the same time, in the 1920s. What was going on then?
LISTENER: Well, a bunch of stuff. It became easier to make large amounts of things, like sauces, thanks to machines and factories. Plus, this was around the time when more people started living in cities.
JOY DOLO: Right. They were on the go, working outside of their homes. They needed quick, portable food like sandwiches.
LISTENER: And you know you have a sandwich without a spread, like mayo.
JOY DOLO: I beg to differ. Oh Maya, I've tried so hard, and I've said the word mayonnaise so many times, but I just can't go on. I still don't like mayo, and I think I'm done talking about it.
LISTENER: I have an idea. How about I call up our friend Francis Lam?
JOY DOLO: Francis Lam? Charming and talented host of The Splendid Table podcast? OK, I do love Francis.
LISTENER: Me, too. And the splendid table is a show all about food and cooking. So if anyone can help you understand the magic, or at least the merit of mayo, it's him.
JOY DOLO: Let's give him a call.
[PHONE RINGING]
FRANCIS LAM: Hello?
JOY DOLO: Hi, Francis. It's Joy.
LISTENER: And Maya.
FRANCIS LAM: What? From the delightful and whimsical podcast Forever Ago? I love your show.
LISTENER: Yes, we're calling because we need your help. Joy is not a fan of mayonnaise, so can you help us understand why it's useful?
FRANCIS LAM: Is cake better when it's covered in frosting? Yes.
LISTENER: OK, so how do you like to use mayonnaise?
FRANCIS LAM: I like to use it every which way. I mean, the most obvious way, of course, is on the sandwich. But there are actually so many different ways to use it. So mayonnaise, as you probably know, is-- it is a pretty basic sauce. And I mean basic as in fundamental, not basic as in like, boy, you are so basic.
JOY DOLO: [LAUGHS]
FRANCIS LAM: So it is made-- it's what we call, in food nerd circles, an emulsion. An emulsion is a sauce or a substance where oil and water have been made to mix, maybe a little bit against their will, but they all kind of get along. So when you whisk the egg yolks in mayonnaise with a little lemon juice and oil, what you're doing is-- the egg yolk acts as a bond to keep the oil and water and the lemon juice blended together into a thick, beautiful sauce, instead of a greasy mess.
LISTENER: How are the different kinds of mayonnaise different, like, Dukes versus Hellmann's versus Kewpie?
FRANCIS LAM: Oh, OK. So you just mentioned my absolute favorites. So what makes those different mayonnaises different is, basically, how they flavor that sauce, whether they use more or less lemon juice or vinegar or whether they add different spices to it, and in some cases, maybe a tiny touch of sugar, and in Kewpie's case, a little bit of MSG. So Kewpie-- when you taste it, sometimes they call it, cheese mayonnaise, because it has a richer flavor, a deeper flavor, almost like cheese. And that's because they've seasoned it with a little bit of MSG to give it that depth. So that's super delicious.
I grew up with Hellmann's, so I feel like Hellmann's is kind of, like, the foundational mayonnaise. That's the mayonnaise upon which all mayonnaises are built. That's not actually the case, though. And if you grew up in the South, you might like Duke's more, because that's a brand that's much more popular in the South.
JOY DOLO: Kewpie sounds really good. I've never had it before, but if it's got a cheese-- I love cheese, I love cheese. And if you can tell me that this mayonnaise tastes like cheese--
FRANCIS LAM: Oh, we're turning you.
LISTENER: You guys, you guys, mark it here in the history book, Joy Dolo has officially said that she thinks mayonnaise sounds delicious.
FRANCIS LAM: She's open.
JOY DOLO: I said it. I did not eat it.
FRANCIS LAM: Would it help you to know, too, that Kewpie comes in a really cute bottle and has a really cute doll as the icon, and it has a star tip, so when you squeeze it out, it looks like a star.
JOY DOLO: [GASPS] It does help.
FRANCIS LAM: I feel like a sandwich is almost incomplete without it. I love bread. I love things that go in bread. But I kind of feel like a sandwich needs a little bit of juice, a little bit of slickness, you know? And the mayonnaise provides that perfectly. I like butter on bread, but butter in a sandwich is-- I don't know. It's like-- it doesn't feel right. I want something to make the things kind of slide a little bit.
[LAUGHTER]
That sounds so delicious, doesn't it?
LISTENER: I was catching your drift until you said, juice, and then you said, slide. But--
FRANCIS LAM: Yeah, I guess I'm not doing myself any favors.
[LAUGHTER]
JOY DOLO: I'm off the mayo train again.
FRANCIS LAM: Oh, no, I lost her. Instead of saying juiciness and sliminess, maybe I would say it offers richness and sauciness, because that's the thing, too, because the flavor of mayonnaise is oil-- is the richness of oil, but it doesn't taste oily and greasy again, because of the magic of emulsion. And because it's emulsified, it actually makes your mouth-- it makes your tongue react to it differently.
So it actually accepts the flavor of the oil in a way that's a little bit more clean and a little bit richer than, again, what it would taste like if you just put a spoonful of oil in your mouth, which even I think sounds extremely gross.
JOY DOLO: Are there other really popular emulsions?
FRANCIS LAM: Most creamy salad dressings are emulsions. Like, ranch dressing is basically mayonnaise with a little bit of buttermilk and some seasonings.
JOY DOLO: No, it's not.
FRANCIS LAM: It's true. It is true.
LISTENER: Joy.
JOY DOLO: My world is changing I love ranch. I'm going to lose so many fans.
[LAUGHTER]
LISTENER: So what's a possible recipe that Joy could try, I mean, other than salad with ranch dressing or whatever-- that Joy could try that would show a more hidden use for mayonnaise?
FRANCIS LAM: Oh, a hidden use for mayonnaise. Well, this I love because mayonnaise is usually turned into a sauce, turned into a condiment, something like that, a salad dressing. Another famous emulsion that's a salad dressing is Caesar dressing, which again, is basically a mayonnaise. But a hidden use-- this is actually one of my favorite kitchen hacks. So are you fans of grilled cheese?
LISTENER: Yes,
JOY DOLO: Yes.
JOY DOLO: OK, so what's the biggest problem when you make a grilled cheese?
LISTENER: When the cheese gets cold and then it gets chewy.
FRANCIS LAM: OK. Well, that's a problem with eating the grilled cheese not fast enough.
JOY DOLO: [LAUGHS]
FRANCIS LAM: But I feel like when you're making grilled cheese, if you put butter on the bread and then you start to fry the sandwich, it often gets burnt, and you have all those burnt spots and you'll kind of be like, this is still delicious, I guess. But if you coat the bread with mayonnaise and fry it with the mayonnaise outside the bread instead of butter, mayonnaise, because it doesn't have the milk solids-- it doesn't burn nearly as easily. But it still has the ability to coat the bread, so you're not like pouring oil on the bread to fry it. So that is a super hack for grilled cheese.
LISTENER: That's so cool.
JOY DOLO: Oh, my gosh, I hope that the fans that listening to this-- they make the grilled cheese with the mayo and send pictures to ForeverAgo.org/contact. But you gave so many great points I'm going to have to start hating something else. I just didn't understand mayonnaise, and Francis has really helped me understand just the different ways that mayo is actually a part of my life.
FRANCIS LAM: And isn't that the secret to existence on this world?
JOY DOLO: Isn't that why we're here?
FRANCIS LAM: The more we understand, the less we hate.
JOY DOLO: Yes, different perspectives. And I'm just learning so much. Thank you so much for joining us, Francis.
LISTENER: Thank you so much.
FRANCIS LAM: It's been a pleasure. Thanks for the call.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
LISTENER: Mayo is a simple sauce made from a few ingredients, and it's been around for a long time.
JOY DOLO: We don't know who made it first or where the name came from, but it's become a super popular condiment all over the world.
LISTENER: Several big mayo brands that we still eat today got their start in the 1920s. That's when people started working outside their homes and eating meals on the go, like sandwiches.
JOY DOLO: Not everyone likes mayo. I don't, and [LAUGHS] that's OK. But there are some recipes that use it in an interesting way, like grilled cheese with ranch, which is secretly mostly Mayo. I'm going to go home and try it out. Just kidding, I hate mayo.
This episode was written and produced by--
MOLLY BLOOM: Molly Bloom.
JOY DOLO: And--
NICO GONZALEZ WISLER: Nico Gonzalez Wisler.
JOY DOLO: Our editors are--
SANDEN TOTTEN: Sanden Totten.
JOY DOLO: And--
SHAHLA FARZAN: Shahla Farzan.
JOY DOLO: Fact checking by--
NICO GONZALEZ WISLER: Nico Gonzalez Wisler.
JOY DOLO: Engineering help from Josh Savageau, with sound design by--
RACHEL BREES: Rachel Brees.
JOY DOLO: Original theme music by--
MARC SANCHEZ: Marc Sanchez.
JOY DOLO: We had additional production help from the rest of the Brains On Universe team.
ROSIE DUPONT: Rosie DuPont.
ANNA GOLDFIELD: Anna Goldfield.
RUBY GUTHRIE: Ruby Guthrie.
LAUREN HUMPERT: Lauren Humpert.
JOSHUA RAY: Joshua Ray.
REBECCA RAND: Rebecca Rand.
SANDEN TOTTEN: Sanden Totten.
CHARLOTTE TRAVER: Charlotte Traver.
ANNA WEGGEL: Anna Weggel.
JOY DOLO: And--
ARON WOLDESLASSIE: Aron Woldeslassie.
JOY DOLO: Beth Perlman is our executive producer, and the executives in charge of APM Studios are Chandra Cavoti and Joanne Griffith. Special thanks to George Kiriama, Amy Bentley, and Erika Romero.
JOSHUA RAY: And if you want access to ad-free episodes and special bonus content, subscribe to our Smartie Pass.
JOY DOLO: OK, Maya, it's that time. Are you ready for the answers to First Things First.
JOSHUA RAY: No, not really.
JOY DOLO: [LAUGHS] I thought you had some really great ideas. First you thought was instant oatmeal. And second was Augustus Gloop from Charlie and Chocolate Factory. And third, Gloppy from the Candyland board game.
LISTENER: Yeah. Now I'm a little bit more confident, just hearing it out loud.
JOY DOLO: It makes sense, right?
LISTENER: I guess. Yeah.
JOY DOLO: All right. Drum roll, please. [VOCALIZING]
And so, Maya, you--
LISTENER: You're going to say that I got them right? Because you always do your sad voice when people get them right.
JOY DOLO: I thought that was my happy voice.
LISTENER: Oh, it was?
JOY DOLO: Yeah Oh. Just kidding. You got it right! [LAUGHS] Yeah, you got it right. I was going to do a sad voice. You got me, Maya.
LISTENER: We know now, Joy. I'm sorry, but we know. After, like, three seasons of you always going, oh, Maya-- oh, I'm so sorry, because whenever it's actually bad, then you're like, well, you got two of them right, like you're trying to make us feel better, but when you're trying to make us feel sad, we know that you're just going to be like [INAUDIBLE]. But yeah.
JOY DOLO: [LAUGHS] Maya, you are so on to me. [LAUGHS]
LISTENER: [LAUGHS] You can't use that tactic anymore,
JOY DOLO: OK, Maya, you got them right. Let me tell you why they're right, Maya. So first was instant oatmeal in 1922. So before instant oatmeal, traditional steel-cut oats would have to be cooked for about 30 minutes before you could dig into a delicious bowl of oatmeal. And in 1922, Quaker Oat Company introduced quick cooking oats, which would only take five minutes. And so the Quaker Oat Company filed for a patent for instant oatmeal in 1957, which would be ready in just two minutes. Hey, you want to hear something else awesome?
LISTENER: Yeah.
JOY DOLO: You got the second one right, too.
LISTENER: Yay.
JOY DOLO: So, Augustus Gloop-- he made his appearance in the book Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, which-- written by Roald Dahl and published in 1964. And in the book, he falls into a chocolate river, which is also gloopy. And in an earlier draft of the book, the character was named Augustus Pottle, and gloop is much more fun to say, right-- gloop?
LISTENER: Yeah.
JOY DOLO: Last and certainly not least is Gloppy, and that was invented in 1984. So the Candyland board game first came out in 1948 and was designed to entertain children who were in the hospital, sick with polio. In fact, the inventor was a former teacher who was also in the hospital with polio and saw how bored the children were.
And in the original version, it had familiar locations like the Gumdrop Forest and Molasses Swamp, but none of the goofy characters to accompany them. And they didn't come until 1984, when Gloppy, the resident of the Molasses Swamp, and other characters, like Queen Frostine and Plumpy were introduced. Isn't that interesting?
LISTENER: That's so cool.
JOY DOLO: Yeah, I love that. It was like an idea for kids that were bored in the hospital.
LISTENER: Yeah, it's so sweet. It's beautiful.
JOY DOLO: So were you surprised by any of those answers?
LISTENER: I was surprised that I got them right. That's something I'm surprised about how late instant oatmeal was. I'm like I thought you would have been in, like, 50 BCE. No, I'm joking, but--
JOY DOLO: [LAUGHS]
LISTENER: But going to be totally honest. Real steel-cut oats are a lot better than instant oatmeal.
JOY DOLO: Maya, I agree with you.
LISTENER: I know.
JOY DOLO: I love steel-cut oats. I just take the time to make them because they're so much better.
LISTENER: I don't take the time to make them. I take the time to make my dad make them.
JOY DOLO: [LAUGHS] You've got a good plan. All right, everybody, join us next week for a new episode all about Bollywood movies.
LISTENER: Thanks for listening.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
We'll be back next week with a brand new debate, Frankenstein's monster versus Frosty the snowman. Until then, enjoy this special episode of Forever Ago, and thanks for listening.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
JOY DOLO: (SINGING) H-O-T T-O G-O
I don't think I like mayo
It makes me uncomfortable
How much I despise mayo
AUTOMATED VOICE: You've got mail.
JOY DOLO: Oh, doth mine ears deceive me? No, they doth not. I've got Forever Ago mail. Yes! I'll have to finish my very original anti-mayonnaise song later. Hmm. Let's see. Oh, it's an email from a listener named Maya from San Diego, California. The subject line of the email is, "The History of Mayo?
[DRAMATIC MUSIC]
No!
[MOCK SOBS]
No! No! This can't be right. Oh, I know, I'll text Maya and ask her in person.
[TAPPING]
[TEXT TONE]
[KNOCKING]
Whoa. That was fast.
LISTENER: Hi, Joy.
JOY DOLO: Maya, tell me it isn't true. "The History of Mayo?" Why are you doing this to me?
LISTENER: Listen, I know what you're thinking, but just hear me out. How about I read you my question?
JOY DOLO: Mm, OK. Go ahead.
LISTENER: OK. I decided to send in an idea for a podcast episode for Forever Ago. I chose this especially because it's Joy's worst nightmare, arch nemesis, and mortal enemy, mayonnaise.
JOY DOLO: Ugh.
LISTENER: I think Joy Dolo is super awesome.
JOY DOLO: Aw.
LISTENER: But I think the episode would be super amusing, with all of Joy's disgusted reactions.
JOY DOLO: Ugh. Who said, I make disgusted noises? Ugh. [SHUDDERS]
LISTENER: I used to love mayonnaise, but now I'm low-key against it, so I think I would get Joy's OK. Also, if Joy Dolo didn't actually hate mayonnaise and it was just to give Forever Ago more character and humor, I will be completely and utterly heartbroken, and I think every other Forever Ago fan would be, too. But thank you so much for listening to my idea.
JOY DOLO: Maya. I assure you, this is not an act. Ever since I was a kid, I've always despised mayo. The gunky texture, the sour taste, the smell of rotting--
LISTENER: I get it, I get it. So can we do an episode about mayo? You always say we should send in our episode ideas.
JOY DOLO: I do, I do, and we never shy away from the hard stuff here at Forever Ago.
LISTENER: OMG, OMG, OMG.
JOY DOLO: Come on, Maya. Let's explore the history of-- [GULPS] the history of, ugh-- the history of mayo.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Welcome to Forever Ago from APM Studios. I'm Joy Dolo, and my co-host today is Maya from San Diego, California. Hi, Maya.
LISTENER: Hi, Joy. Forever Ago is a non-profit public radio program.
JOY DOLO: Which means we rely on support from our listeners to keep the show going. There are lots of ways you can support the show.
LISTENER: You can donate, become a Smartie Pass subscriber, or buy our merch.
JOY DOLO: The T-shirt has my face on it. Head to ForeverAgo.org to show your support.
LISTENER: Thank you.
JOY DOLO: Now, Maya, [SIGHS] I would like to say I'm excited, but I'm not. In fact, I'm not sure I can go on. Literally, everyone knows Mayo and I are not BFFs. We're not even Fs. In fact, we're Es, for enemies. I honestly don't know if I can do this episode.
LISTENER: But Joy, you're an actor.
JOY DOLO: I am.
LISTENER: And you've done some tough roles. You've played fruit in a fruit salad, a tree and a forest--
JOY DOLO: And I did not make a sound. Acting.
LISTENER: So why not use your acting skills to get in the frame of mind of someone who likes mayo?
JOY DOLO: Ugh. [SHUDDERS]
LISTENER: OK, fine. Someone who tolerates and is curious about mayo.
JOY DOLO: [GROANS]
LISTENER: Act, Joy. Act. Acting is about empathy, deeper understanding through imagination.
JOY DOLO: OK, fine. You talked me into it, Maya. Let me just do some quick warm-ups to get into character. Mayo is a cool condiment. Mayo is a cool condiment. Mayo is a cool condiment. My mama mixes Mayo and mustard. My mama mixes mayo and mustard. [FLUBS LIPS] [VOCALIZING] OK, OK, OK. [SIGHS] Let's do it.
LISTENER: You got this Joy.
JOY DOLO: I'm Joy Dolo, and I tolerate mayo. And this is Maya, which is just one letter different than the word, mayo. But we won't hold that against her. So, Maya, you used to like mayo. What was your favorite way to eat it?
LISTENER: My dad makes all the food in the house. My mom makes lots of food, too. But my dad makes the authentic Lebanese food. And he makes the authentic Lebanese cabbage salad. But also, he will mix up his recipes a little bit. So he used to put mayo in the cabbage salad, and it's actually really good. I still kind of like it, but I used to also mayo in my turkey sandwiches and stuff. I don't anymore. I also don't eat turkey because I'm vegetarian now.
JOY DOLO: Ah. Why did you start to dislike it? Did it do something to you?
LISTENER: Yes, it did. It betrayed me.
JOY DOLO: Oh, no.
LISTENER: I got sick of it. There were too many mayo sandwiches, and I'm like, I'm done with you, mayo.
JOY DOLO: [LAUGHS] Just write it off. I hear you. That sounds very much like my story. OK, so how would you describe mayo for someone who hasn't had it before?
LISTENER: OK, it depends on what kind of mayo you have, but it's like an almost neutral white, thickish cream, but it's a little bit sweet.
JOY DOLO: Mm. There's something about the texture and something about it that I just have never liked, but it's also-- it's everywhere, right? Mayonnaise is a simple sauce made of a few key ingredients.
LISTENER: Egg yolks.
JOY DOLO: Some kind of oil.
LISTENER: Some kind of acid, like lemon juice or vinegar.
JOY DOLO: And sometimes seasoning, like maybe garlic or mustard.
LISTENER: That's it.
JOY DOLO: Because this recipe is so simple, it's been around for a long time. As long as these ingredients have existed, someone was probably mixing them together.
LISTENER: Emphasis on, mixing. In order to get the consistency just right, you have to stir and stir and stir and stir, adding the oil and lemon juice a little bit at a time.
JOY DOLO: But as far as historians can tell, the name, mayonnaise, wasn't used until about 200 to 300 years ago. Who came up with that name anyway? It sounds French. Is it French for, jiggly white sauce of my nightmares?
LISTENER: The, aise, part of the word is definitely French.
JOY DOLO: Yeah, it can mean, comes from.
LISTENER: But the, mayo, part of the name-- no one can agree on where that part came from.
JOY DOLO: That's because no one wants to take credit for it. Hey, oh! [LAUGHS] Can I get a high five?
[CRICKETS CHIRPING]
No? Nobody?
LISTENER: One idea is that Mayo is named after a city in Spain called Mahón.
JOY DOLO: In Spanish, a source from there would be called, salsa mayonesa.
LISTENER: Another idea is that the name comes from the French word, [FRENCH], meaning to stir.
JOY DOLO: Mayonnaise. Makes sense, since you have to stir it a lot to make it.
LISTENER: And others thought that it might come from the old French word, [FRENCH], which means egg yolk.
JOY DOLO: [FRENCH] naise, another contender, since the egg yolks set it apart from other sauces.
LISTENER: And there's another theory that it's actually named after a French town called Bayonne.
JOY DOLO: Bayonnaise. That's how I say, mayonnaise, when I have a cold. Please pass the bayonnaise, away from me.
LISTENER: But no matter the etymology or the origin of the word, mayonnaise is here to stay.
JOY DOLO: It's eaten all over the world.
LISTENER: Russia is the country that eats the most mayo, using it in salads with herring, beets, or potatoes.
JOY DOLO: And of all the condiments, for some reason it's the most popular one in the US, which is absurd since mustard is right there.
LISTENER: It's so popular here that people have very real feelings about which brand of mayonnaise is best.
JOY DOLO: OK, as a passionate holder of mayonnaise opinions, I can't wait to hear about that. But first, I need a break, please. So let's play--
[MUSIC PLAYING]
First Things First.
[FUTURISTIC MUSIC]
JOY DOLO: This is the game where we take three things from history and try to put them, in order of which came first, second, and most recent in time. Today's three things are gloopy things-- Augustus Gloop from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Gloppy from the board game Candyland, and instant oatmeal. [SIGHS] OK, Maya, which do you think came first? Which came second? And which came most recently in history? Actually, first of all, have you seen Charlie and the Chocolate Factory?
LISTENER: I have read the book and seen the movie. Augustus Gloop is the one who eats a lot of chocolate, right?
JOY DOLO: Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
LISTENER: OK, so I know that's pretty old because Roald Dahl is a classic, but the next one-- instant oatmeal. I love instant oatmeal. But I cannot remember the last one you said. What was it?
JOY DOLO: Oh, yeah. Gloppy from the board game Candyland.
LISTENER: I'm going to go Augustus Gloop 'cause I feel like Roald Dahl did not get his inspiration from Candyland.
JOY DOLO: [SIGHS]
LISTENER: I feel like I can't imagine Roald Dahl playing Candyland. And without those vibes going on, I can only imagine that he wasn't alive when Candyland was invented. Wait, actually, I didn't even think about the oatmeal. Oh, this is so hard. Ah! I'm going to say oatmeal first, 'cause I feel like that could have been made with really simple ingredients.
And we learned about-- in school, about the Neolithic period and agriculture. And I feel like instant oatmeal is really simple. And I feel like it's something that could have come really early. And then I'm going to go Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Augustus Gloop, and then I'm going to go Candyland.
JOY DOLO: Ooh, OK.
LISTENER: I never get these right. I'm so scared.
JOY DOLO: Listen, those are some great guesses. I would actually guess that order, too. So we have instant oatmeal, Augustus Gloop, and then Gloppy from Candyland?
LISTENER: Yeah.
JOY DOLO: Okey-dokey. We'll hear the answers at the end of the episode, right after the credits.
LISTENER: So stick around.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
JOY DOLO: Hey, Forever Ago friends, we love hearing from our listeners, and we want to know what topic you would like to explore on the show. Is there an invention or time period you'd like to learn more about? Maya, what's something from history you're curious about?
LISTENER: Etymology, definitely how language was invented. I feel like that would be really cool. And writing, but can't have writing without language.
JOY DOLO: The history of writing and language. I love that idea. Listeners, if you have a question about history, record yourself asking your question, and send it to us at ForeverAgo.org/contact. And while you're there, you can send us fan art, like maybe a picture of me eating a mustard-heavy sandwich with a bunch of mustard on it, without any mayo, maybe? That's ForeverAgo.org/contact.
LISTENER: And keep listening.
ANNOUNCER 1: Brains On Universe is a family of podcasts for kids and their adults. Since you're a fan of Forever Ago, you'll love the other shows in our universe. Come on, let's explore.
[ROCKET ENGINE ROARING]
ALIEN: It's alien exercise hour. Hiya, hoo, ha! While I stretch my snoodles and bounce on my trampoline--
[BOING]
--I'll listen to a new podcast. Ha-ha! [LAUGHS] I'm going to try Smash Boom Best, the best debate podcast ever.
[ELECTRONIC SOUND]
ANNOUNCER 1: Tell us why Alice in Wonderland has such grand command.
RAPPER: Drop the beat.
[HIP-HOP MUSIC]
Ladies and gentlemen, esteemed judge of Smash Boom Best. I'd like to start with a few rhymes. Uh, yo. Catch me in the rabbit hole, dazzled by a magic show by the--
ALIEN: Zorb! Come back here, podcast.
[ELECTRONIC SOUND]
Must listen to Smash Boom Best now!
ANNOUNCER 1: Listen to Smash Boom Best, wherever you get your podcasts.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
JOY DOLO: You're listening to Forever Ago. I'm Joy.
LISTENER: And I'm Maya. Today we're talking about mayo.
JOY DOLO: Mayonnaise is a [CLEARS THROAT] tasty sauce made of egg yolks, oil, some kind of acid, and maybe some seasoning.
LISTENER: We don't really know where the name came from, but it is stuck and spread all over the world.
JOY DOLO: It's a spread that's spread. So for a long time, this sauce was made by hand, putting all the ingredients together and stirring them up.
LISTENER: But now, instead of making it at home, most people buy it at the grocery store.
JOY DOLO: And people feel very strongly about which brand of mayo is the best.
LISTENER: Yeah, arguments over mayo brands can get pretty intense.
[ROCK MUSIC]
ANNOUNCER 2: You've heard of WWE, World Wrestling Entertainment, where wrestlers like John Cena and the Rock take to the ring and wow audiences? Now, get ready for the WME, World Mayo Eaters, where top mayos take to the tongue and entice taste buds. Stomachs, get ready to rumble.
[BELL DINGING]
JOY DOLO: Can you smell what Eugenia Duke is stirring? It's mayonnaise.
ANNOUNCER 2: Eugenia Duke, inventor of Duke's mayonnaise, Queen of the South.
JOY DOLO: During World War I, I started selling sandwiches to soldiers in training in South Carolina. They loved my sandwiches, but especially the mayo. So I started bottling it and selling it. Now my mayo whip is a premier dip.
MAN 1: Ha. Your mayo is too tangy.
ANNOUNCER 2: Richard Hellmann, inventor of Hellmann's Mayonnaise, King of the Northeast, has entered the ring.
MAN 1: I came to the US from Germany, ran a deli in New York City, and started bottling and selling my very special mayonnaise around the same time as the Duchess over here. Hellmann's is here to lay the smackdown on your sandwiches.
JOY DOLO: Too tangy? Too tangy? Well, you're boring mayo is a meh, no.
MAN 2: Boring? Tangy? You both clearly need a little sweetness from this cutie pie.
ANNOUNCER 2: Oh, my. It's Japanese mayo inventor Toichiro Nakashima. This mayo match-up is now officially a battle royale.
MAN 2 I first tasted mayonnaise while working in the US. Then around the same time as these two jokers, I started bottling my own special mayo in Japan. Kewpie. This sauce is boss.
MAN 1: Kewpie? More like a'poopy.
JOY DOLO: Richard, bless your heart. You think your mayonnaise is better than his?
MAN 1: [SCOFFS] I know it is.
MAN 2: Why don't you call your mommy and ask for more umami?
ANNOUNCER 2: Which mayo maker will come out on top? We don't know. It's highly subjective.
[ROCK MUSIC]
JOY DOLO: I decline to take part in this taste test, but I do love a good rivalry.
LISTENER: There are real differences between these males. Kewpie uses rice vinegar, more egg yolks, and yeast extract, giving it that big savory flavor, a.k.a. umami, plus some tangy sweetness, too.
JOY DOLO: Duke's uses cider vinegar and doesn't add any sugar, making it the mayor of tangy town.
LISTENER: And Hellmann's prides itself on its mildness and thick, creamy texture.
JOY DOLO: OK. So all these super popular mayos started being bottled around the same time, in the 1920s. What was going on then?
LISTENER: Well, a bunch of stuff. It became easier to make large amounts of things, like sauces, thanks to machines and factories. Plus, this was around the time when more people started living in cities.
JOY DOLO: Right. They were on the go, working outside of their homes. They needed quick, portable food like sandwiches.
LISTENER: And you know you have a sandwich without a spread, like mayo.
JOY DOLO: I beg to differ. Oh Maya, I've tried so hard, and I've said the word mayonnaise so many times, but I just can't go on. I still don't like mayo, and I think I'm done talking about it.
LISTENER: I have an idea. How about I call up our friend Francis Lam?
JOY DOLO: Francis Lam? Charming and talented host of The Splendid Table podcast? OK, I do love Francis.
LISTENER: Me, too. And the splendid table is a show all about food and cooking. So if anyone can help you understand the magic, or at least the merit of mayo, it's him.
JOY DOLO: Let's give him a call.
[PHONE RINGING]
FRANCIS LAM: Hello?
JOY DOLO: Hi, Francis. It's Joy.
LISTENER: And Maya.
FRANCIS LAM: What? From the delightful and whimsical podcast Forever Ago? I love your show.
LISTENER: Yes, we're calling because we need your help. Joy is not a fan of mayonnaise, so can you help us understand why it's useful?
FRANCIS LAM: Is cake better when it's covered in frosting? Yes.
LISTENER: OK, so how do you like to use mayonnaise?
FRANCIS LAM: I like to use it every which way. I mean, the most obvious way, of course, is on the sandwich. But there are actually so many different ways to use it. So mayonnaise, as you probably know, is-- it is a pretty basic sauce. And I mean basic as in fundamental, not basic as in like, boy, you are so basic.
JOY DOLO: [LAUGHS]
FRANCIS LAM: So it is made-- it's what we call, in food nerd circles, an emulsion. An emulsion is a sauce or a substance where oil and water have been made to mix, maybe a little bit against their will, but they all kind of get along. So when you whisk the egg yolks in mayonnaise with a little lemon juice and oil, what you're doing is-- the egg yolk acts as a bond to keep the oil and water and the lemon juice blended together into a thick, beautiful sauce, instead of a greasy mess.
LISTENER: How are the different kinds of mayonnaise different, like, Dukes versus Hellmann's versus Kewpie?
FRANCIS LAM: Oh, OK. So you just mentioned my absolute favorites. So what makes those different mayonnaises different is, basically, how they flavor that sauce, whether they use more or less lemon juice or vinegar or whether they add different spices to it, and in some cases, maybe a tiny touch of sugar, and in Kewpie's case, a little bit of MSG. So Kewpie-- when you taste it, sometimes they call it, cheese mayonnaise, because it has a richer flavor, a deeper flavor, almost like cheese. And that's because they've seasoned it with a little bit of MSG to give it that depth. So that's super delicious.
I grew up with Hellmann's, so I feel like Hellmann's is kind of, like, the foundational mayonnaise. That's the mayonnaise upon which all mayonnaises are built. That's not actually the case, though. And if you grew up in the South, you might like Duke's more, because that's a brand that's much more popular in the South.
JOY DOLO: Kewpie sounds really good. I've never had it before, but if it's got a cheese-- I love cheese, I love cheese. And if you can tell me that this mayonnaise tastes like cheese--
FRANCIS LAM: Oh, we're turning you.
LISTENER: You guys, you guys, mark it here in the history book, Joy Dolo has officially said that she thinks mayonnaise sounds delicious.
FRANCIS LAM: She's open.
JOY DOLO: I said it. I did not eat it.
FRANCIS LAM: Would it help you to know, too, that Kewpie comes in a really cute bottle and has a really cute doll as the icon, and it has a star tip, so when you squeeze it out, it looks like a star.
JOY DOLO: [GASPS] It does help.
FRANCIS LAM: I feel like a sandwich is almost incomplete without it. I love bread. I love things that go in bread. But I kind of feel like a sandwich needs a little bit of juice, a little bit of slickness, you know? And the mayonnaise provides that perfectly. I like butter on bread, but butter in a sandwich is-- I don't know. It's like-- it doesn't feel right. I want something to make the things kind of slide a little bit.
[LAUGHTER]
That sounds so delicious, doesn't it?
LISTENER: I was catching your drift until you said, juice, and then you said, slide. But--
FRANCIS LAM: Yeah, I guess I'm not doing myself any favors.
[LAUGHTER]
JOY DOLO: I'm off the mayo train again.
FRANCIS LAM: Oh, no, I lost her. Instead of saying juiciness and sliminess, maybe I would say it offers richness and sauciness, because that's the thing, too, because the flavor of mayonnaise is oil-- is the richness of oil, but it doesn't taste oily and greasy again, because of the magic of emulsion. And because it's emulsified, it actually makes your mouth-- it makes your tongue react to it differently.
So it actually accepts the flavor of the oil in a way that's a little bit more clean and a little bit richer than, again, what it would taste like if you just put a spoonful of oil in your mouth, which even I think sounds extremely gross.
JOY DOLO: Are there other really popular emulsions?
FRANCIS LAM: Most creamy salad dressings are emulsions. Like, ranch dressing is basically mayonnaise with a little bit of buttermilk and some seasonings.
JOY DOLO: No, it's not.
FRANCIS LAM: It's true. It is true.
LISTENER: Joy.
JOY DOLO: My world is changing I love ranch. I'm going to lose so many fans.
[LAUGHTER]
LISTENER: So what's a possible recipe that Joy could try, I mean, other than salad with ranch dressing or whatever-- that Joy could try that would show a more hidden use for mayonnaise?
FRANCIS LAM: Oh, a hidden use for mayonnaise. Well, this I love because mayonnaise is usually turned into a sauce, turned into a condiment, something like that, a salad dressing. Another famous emulsion that's a salad dressing is Caesar dressing, which again, is basically a mayonnaise. But a hidden use-- this is actually one of my favorite kitchen hacks. So are you fans of grilled cheese?
LISTENER: Yes,
JOY DOLO: Yes.
JOY DOLO: OK, so what's the biggest problem when you make a grilled cheese?
LISTENER: When the cheese gets cold and then it gets chewy.
FRANCIS LAM: OK. Well, that's a problem with eating the grilled cheese not fast enough.
JOY DOLO: [LAUGHS]
FRANCIS LAM: But I feel like when you're making grilled cheese, if you put butter on the bread and then you start to fry the sandwich, it often gets burnt, and you have all those burnt spots and you'll kind of be like, this is still delicious, I guess. But if you coat the bread with mayonnaise and fry it with the mayonnaise outside the bread instead of butter, mayonnaise, because it doesn't have the milk solids-- it doesn't burn nearly as easily. But it still has the ability to coat the bread, so you're not like pouring oil on the bread to fry it. So that is a super hack for grilled cheese.
LISTENER: That's so cool.
JOY DOLO: Oh, my gosh, I hope that the fans that listening to this-- they make the grilled cheese with the mayo and send pictures to ForeverAgo.org/contact. But you gave so many great points I'm going to have to start hating something else. I just didn't understand mayonnaise, and Francis has really helped me understand just the different ways that mayo is actually a part of my life.
FRANCIS LAM: And isn't that the secret to existence on this world?
JOY DOLO: Isn't that why we're here?
FRANCIS LAM: The more we understand, the less we hate.
JOY DOLO: Yes, different perspectives. And I'm just learning so much. Thank you so much for joining us, Francis.
LISTENER: Thank you so much.
FRANCIS LAM: It's been a pleasure. Thanks for the call.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
LISTENER: Mayo is a simple sauce made from a few ingredients, and it's been around for a long time.
JOY DOLO: We don't know who made it first or where the name came from, but it's become a super popular condiment all over the world.
LISTENER: Several big mayo brands that we still eat today got their start in the 1920s. That's when people started working outside their homes and eating meals on the go, like sandwiches.
JOY DOLO: Not everyone likes mayo. I don't, and [LAUGHS] that's OK. But there are some recipes that use it in an interesting way, like grilled cheese with ranch, which is secretly mostly Mayo. I'm going to go home and try it out. Just kidding, I hate mayo.
This episode was written and produced by--
MOLLY BLOOM: Molly Bloom.
JOY DOLO: And--
NICO GONZALEZ WISLER: Nico Gonzalez Wisler.
JOY DOLO: Our editors are--
SANDEN TOTTEN: Sanden Totten.
JOY DOLO: And--
SHAHLA FARZAN: Shahla Farzan.
JOY DOLO: Fact checking by--
NICO GONZALEZ WISLER: Nico Gonzalez Wisler.
JOY DOLO: Engineering help from Josh Savageau, with sound design by--
RACHEL BREES: Rachel Brees.
JOY DOLO: Original theme music by--
MARC SANCHEZ: Marc Sanchez.
JOY DOLO: We had additional production help from the rest of the Brains On Universe team.
ROSIE DUPONT: Rosie DuPont.
ANNA GOLDFIELD: Anna Goldfield.
RUBY GUTHRIE: Ruby Guthrie.
LAUREN HUMPERT: Lauren Humpert.
JOSHUA RAY: Joshua Ray.
REBECCA RAND: Rebecca Rand.
SANDEN TOTTEN: Sanden Totten.
CHARLOTTE TRAVER: Charlotte Traver.
ANNA WEGGEL: Anna Weggel.
JOY DOLO: And--
ARON WOLDESLASSIE: Aron Woldeslassie.
JOY DOLO: Beth Perlman is our executive producer, and the executives in charge of APM Studios are Chandra Cavoti and Joanne Griffith. Special thanks to George Kiriama, Amy Bentley, and Erika Romero.
JOSHUA RAY: And if you want access to ad-free episodes and special bonus content, subscribe to our Smartie Pass.
JOY DOLO: OK, Maya, it's that time. Are you ready for the answers to First Things First.
JOSHUA RAY: No, not really.
JOY DOLO: [LAUGHS] I thought you had some really great ideas. First you thought was instant oatmeal. And second was Augustus Gloop from Charlie and Chocolate Factory. And third, Gloppy from the Candyland board game.
LISTENER: Yeah. Now I'm a little bit more confident, just hearing it out loud.
JOY DOLO: It makes sense, right?
LISTENER: I guess. Yeah.
JOY DOLO: All right. Drum roll, please. [VOCALIZING]
And so, Maya, you--
LISTENER: You're going to say that I got them right? Because you always do your sad voice when people get them right.
JOY DOLO: I thought that was my happy voice.
LISTENER: Oh, it was?
JOY DOLO: Yeah Oh. Just kidding. You got it right! [LAUGHS] Yeah, you got it right. I was going to do a sad voice. You got me, Maya.
LISTENER: We know now, Joy. I'm sorry, but we know. After, like, three seasons of you always going, oh, Maya-- oh, I'm so sorry, because whenever it's actually bad, then you're like, well, you got two of them right, like you're trying to make us feel better, but when you're trying to make us feel sad, we know that you're just going to be like [INAUDIBLE]. But yeah.
JOY DOLO: [LAUGHS] Maya, you are so on to me. [LAUGHS]
LISTENER: [LAUGHS] You can't use that tactic anymore,
JOY DOLO: OK, Maya, you got them right. Let me tell you why they're right, Maya. So first was instant oatmeal in 1922. So before instant oatmeal, traditional steel-cut oats would have to be cooked for about 30 minutes before you could dig into a delicious bowl of oatmeal. And in 1922, Quaker Oat Company introduced quick cooking oats, which would only take five minutes. And so the Quaker Oat Company filed for a patent for instant oatmeal in 1957, which would be ready in just two minutes. Hey, you want to hear something else awesome?
LISTENER: Yeah.
JOY DOLO: You got the second one right, too.
LISTENER: Yay.
JOY DOLO: So, Augustus Gloop-- he made his appearance in the book Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, which-- written by Roald Dahl and published in 1964. And in the book, he falls into a chocolate river, which is also gloopy. And in an earlier draft of the book, the character was named Augustus Pottle, and gloop is much more fun to say, right-- gloop?
LISTENER: Yeah.
JOY DOLO: Last and certainly not least is Gloppy, and that was invented in 1984. So the Candyland board game first came out in 1948 and was designed to entertain children who were in the hospital, sick with polio. In fact, the inventor was a former teacher who was also in the hospital with polio and saw how bored the children were.
And in the original version, it had familiar locations like the Gumdrop Forest and Molasses Swamp, but none of the goofy characters to accompany them. And they didn't come until 1984, when Gloppy, the resident of the Molasses Swamp, and other characters, like Queen Frostine and Plumpy were introduced. Isn't that interesting?
LISTENER: That's so cool.
JOY DOLO: Yeah, I love that. It was like an idea for kids that were bored in the hospital.
LISTENER: Yeah, it's so sweet. It's beautiful.
JOY DOLO: So were you surprised by any of those answers?
LISTENER: I was surprised that I got them right. That's something I'm surprised about how late instant oatmeal was. I'm like I thought you would have been in, like, 50 BCE. No, I'm joking, but--
JOY DOLO: [LAUGHS]
LISTENER: But going to be totally honest. Real steel-cut oats are a lot better than instant oatmeal.
JOY DOLO: Maya, I agree with you.
LISTENER: I know.
JOY DOLO: I love steel-cut oats. I just take the time to make them because they're so much better.
LISTENER: I don't take the time to make them. I take the time to make my dad make them.
JOY DOLO: [LAUGHS] You've got a good plan. All right, everybody, join us next week for a new episode all about Bollywood movies.
LISTENER: Thanks for listening.
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