Today's debate is a showdown between two lovable characters. One is a playful pup from down under, and one is a giggling, ticklish monster. It’s Bluey vs. Elmo! Writer Kathryn VanArendonk will fight for family fun with team Bluey while culture writer and podcaster Margaret H. Willison will charm you with Elmo’s curiosity and cuteness. Who will be crowned the Smash Boom Best? Vote below for the team YOU think won!
Also… do you have your Smarty Pass yet? Get yours today for just $5/month (or $45/year) and get bonus episodes every month, and ad-free versions of every episode of Brains On, Smash Boom Best, Moment of Um and Forever Ago. Visit www.smartypass.org to get your Smarty Pass today. As an added bonus, your Smarty Pass will grant you access to a super special debate starring Sanden and Molly!
Audio Transcript
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MOLLY BLOOM: From the brains behind Brains On, it's Smash Boom Best.
EMMA: The show for people with big opinions.
MOLLY BLOOM: Hi, I'm Molly Bloom, and this is Smash Boom Best, the show where we take two things, smash them together, and ask you to decide which one is best. Today's debate is a showdown between two lovable characters. One is a playful pup from down under and one is a giggling, ticklish monster. It's Bluey versus Elmo. For Team Bluey, we've got the writer of the forthcoming book, The Bluey Years. It's Kathryn VanArendonk.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Blue Heeler heart-stealer, go Blue.
MOLLY BLOOM: [CHUCKLES] And representing Team Elmo, it's culture writer and podcaster Margaret H. Willison.
MARGARET WILLISON: Elmo is red and losers are blue.
MOLLY BLOOM: [CHUCKLES] And here to judge it all is Emma from Austin, Texas. Emma has three cats and a collection of freshwater fish, is an avid listener of Smash Boom Best with her two little brothers-- hi, guys, and has a passion for making her own earrings. Hi, Emma.
EMMA: Hi, how are you today?
MOLLY BLOOM: I am great. I'm so happy that you're here. So, Emma, you clearly love pets. Last time we talked to you, you were hoping to procure a pet python. Did your dream come true?
EMMA: Sadly, it did not. That is still in the making. But I have not gotten one yet.
MOLLY BLOOM: It's only a matter of time, I'm sure. Can you please tell me the names of your cats?
EMMA: I have Rex and Cinnamon and Flitwick.
MOLLY BLOOM: Aw. Do you have a favorite, or do they all have their own spot in your heart?
EMMA: They all are super special. But I think if I had to pick a favorite, I would go with my cat Flitwick because he reminds me of Harry Potter.
MOLLY BLOOM: Fair. And I know that you are a clarinet player in a very good marching band. Can you tell us a little bit about what it's like to be like in a competitive marching band?
EMMA: It is pretty exciting. We get to go to all these different competitions throughout the years. And we actually just recently went to our first competition of this season. And we placed sixth at the most competitive marching contest in the US.
MOLLY BLOOM: That is so cool.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: That's very cool.
MARGARET WILLISON: Yes.
MOLLY BLOOM: So, do you have any advice for our debaters today?
EMMA: I love puns, and always try your best to have fun.
MOLLY BLOOM: Will Emma side with Kathryn or Margaret? Only time will tell. But first, here are the rules of the game. Every debate consists of four rounds, the Declaration of Greatness, the Micro Round, the Sneak Attack, and the Final Six. After each round, our judge will, Emma, award points to the team that impresses her the most. But she'll keep her decisions top secret until the end of the debate.
Listeners, we want you to judge, too. Mark down your points as you listen. At the end of the show, head to our website, smashboom.org, and vote for whichever team you think won. All right, Kathryn, Margaret, and Emma, are you ready?
EMMA: Oh, yes.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Absolutely. Let's go. Let's do it.
MARGARET WILLISON: I can't wait to hear everyone's arguments.
MOLLY BLOOM: Then it's time for the--
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: Declaration of Greatness.
MOLLY BLOOM: In this round, our debaters will present a well-crafted, immersive argument in favor of their side. Then they'll each have 30 seconds to rebut their opponent's statements. We flipped a coin, and Kathryn, you're up first. Tell us what makes Bluey totally paw-some.
SPEAKER: Hey, friends, and welcome to this year's Disney D23 Expo. This mega convention happens once a year in California. And it's where all the new movies and games are announced. Plus, we get to celebrate the biggest and most exciting characters in the world. Woo! And there are thousands of fans here waiting to meet their favorite characters. Oh, the energy is just incredible. Let's go.
[DOOR OPENS]
Oh, over here, we've got an Avatar booth. Whoa, it looks just like the movie, yeah! And over here, we've got Baby Yoda. Hi. Oh, those ears, so cute. Wait, hang on. Who's that there with the huge crowd lined up around them? Oh, my biscuits! It's Bluey and Bingo! We can meet them? In person? Oh, and I get to see inside their house? Bluey! Bingo! Over here, yeah! Hi, I'm your biggest fan. Oh, this is the best expo ever!
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: That was a dramatic reenactment of something that actually happened at this year's Disney D23 Expo, at a convention chockful of exciting attractions and big stars. Huge crowds lined up for a chance to meet their two favorite pups, the boisterous Blue Heeler dog, Bluey, and her little sister, Bingo.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
The hit Australian animated show takes place in a world full of adorable dogs. In each episode, Bluey and her family play games and do normal family stuff in a way that reminds us that regular life can also be an adventure. Since it premiered in 2018, Bluey has soared to worldwide acclaim. But why is this little dog so universally adored?
First, unlike a certain high-pitched red muppet I could name, Bluey sounds, acts, and plays like a real kid. She's funny. She's happy. She can be sad. She misbehaves. She gets frustrated. She makes up silly games. She loves her parents and her friends. Her life is complex and multifaceted, just like all of us. And her voice matches her personality.
Bluey and all of the kid characters in her world are voiced by real kids. When we hear them, we hear real childhood. Just listen to me saying a sentence. Hello, my name is Blueberries, and I hate to eat blueberries. Now, here's my seven-year-old.
CHILD: Hello, my name is Blueberries, and I hate to eat blueberries, blah, blah, blah, bloop.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: So much more fun, right? And like a kid, Bluey learns by playing. It's how real kids learn, and it's a great way to teach viewers at home. Think about how annoying it is when someone just tells you a lesson.
SPEAKER: And that's why it's so important to share.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Compare that with how much more fun and meaningful it is when you learn something through experience.
CHILD 1: And then I'll meet Mr. Argle Bargle. And then I can also be Captain Peanut Shorts, but I can also be Monsieur Mustard Seed. But I just need to hold them all together while also grabbing them.
CHILD 2: Maybe if you'd let somebody else play with Mr. Argle Bargle, the imaginary continent would not be in such a risk of terrible destruction from your own elbows.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Maybe the coolest thing about Bluey is that she brings families together. Most kid TV characters have a limited age range, but adults, especially parents, legitimately love Bluey. Viewing data from the last year shows that Bluey is one of the most watched TV shows in the world. And it's the most watched show in the entire United States, not just for kids TV, for everything, over 35 billion minutes.
I am a parent, and I like Bluey. I like it so much that I decided to write an entire book about her, for grown-ups, a book for grown-ups. It's because the show is just as much about Bluey's parents, Bandit and Chili. Bluey doesn't just show kids how to be great kids, it's a show about how families love each other, reminding parents that their kids are people, showing kids that their parents are people, too.
It's a show about humanity, even though they're-- they're dogs. No other kids character can so easily speak to five-year-olds, 10-year-olds, and parents. Bluey acts like a real kid. She learns by playing, and she understands the most important lesson, a kids TV character shouldn't just be for kids. She should be for everyone.
MOLLY BLOOM: Well, as the Heeler family says, hooray! That was delightful. Emma, what stood out to you about Kathryn's declaration of greatness?
EMMA: I didn't know kids voiced Bluey characters. I thought that was very interesting and how we all bring people together. And it is the most watched show in the US. I didn't know that.
MOLLY BLOOM: For real life. All right, Margaret, it's time for your rebuttal. Tell us why Bluey should be renamed Boo-ey. You've got 30 seconds. And your time starts now.
MARGARET WILLISON: I'm so thrilled to hear that Bluey was such a hit at D23. And when she's maintained that level of popularity for close to 45 years, she can come and talk to Elmo and maybe get a little bit of advice about how to manage that degree of fame and popularity.
I love what Kathryn had to say about how Bluey brings families together, and I do think that's really special. But I also think there's something incredibly special about characters who exist, particularly for toddlers, particularly for small, small children--
MOLLY BLOOM: And time.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Well, I mean, I understand that Elmo has been around for 45 years. I mean, my question is, like, what has Elmo done for us lately? I think-- I'm in Target a lot. I'm seeing a lot of Bluey toys out there. I'm seeing a lot of Bluey books. I'm telling you, the Elmo diapers, they're not going as fast as they used to.
MARGARET WILLISON: I guess Elmo was just too busy being a announcer and commentator at the Olympics when you were at Target last, Kathryn.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Oh, yeah. How's Elmo's recent late night show going? They canceled it after two seasons, didn't they?
MARGARET WILLISON: Look, Rocco the Rock undermined that show, and it is not Elmo's fault.
[LAUGHTER]
MOLLY BLOOM: All right, Margaret, it is your turn. Tell us what makes Elmo so tickle-tastic.
MARGARET WILLISON: I think the best way to start a debate about Elmo is by hearing from the monster himself, which is why I've come to Sesame Street.
[KNOCKS ON DOOR]
[DOOR OPENS]
VICKI JIVE: Well, who are you? Wait, it doesn't matter. Mr. Elmo is far too busy meeting with fans today.
MARGARET WILLISON: Oh, I'm not a fan. Well, I mean, I am, but-- wait, who are you?
VICKI JIVE: [COUGHS] I'm Vicki Jive, Mr. Elmo's agent. Elmo is so busy teaching, playing, dancing, and learning that he simply doesn't have time for a meet-and-greet.
MARGARET WILLISON: It'll only take a second.
VICKI JIVE: That's the thing, he doesn't have a second. From 7:00 to 11:00, he's taping Sesame Street, from 11:00 to 1:00, he's testifying before the House Appropriations Subcommittee on Labor, Health and Human Services and Education, 1:00 to 2:00, he's having a working lunch with Dorothy the Goldfish and Cookie Monster, 2:00 to 4:00, he's recording his cameos for Good Morning America, 4:00 to 6:00, he's posing for a new toy-- that's embargoed, by the way, 6:00 to 7:00, he has a dinner meeting with Grover and Zendaya, and then by 8:00, he's tucked into bed with a book about himself.
MARGARET WILLISON: Why is Elmo's schedule so tight?
VICKI JIVE: Because he's that lovable. But if it helps you, I'm willing to let you do an Elmo impression when he's not around.
MARGARET WILLISON: Like this? [IMITATES ELMO'S CHUCKLE]
VICKI JIVE: Yeah, that's, um, fine. I mean, it's terrible, but it'll do. Anyway, thanks for coming by, and thanks even more for leaving.
[DOOR SLAMS SHUT]
MARGARET WILLISON: Wow, Elmo is really popular. If you didn't already know, he's a darling three-and-a half-year-old red monster, who's been our friend since he first came on the scene in 1980. There are so many special things about Elmo. While other TV characters want to tell you what to do or what to think, he wants to show you new things and have fun. That's why Elmo makes such a good friend.
And you don't have to take my word for it. Just ask Big Bird or the Count or Rosita. All of them will tell you that with Elmo by your side, you can learn anything.
CHILD: Why are fractions so hard?
ELMO: You can do it. You just have to take it step by step, divide and conquer. [CHUCKLES]
CHILD: Thanks, Elmo. And since I have you, why is quantum mechanics so hard?
ELMO: Because it explains the strange behavior of subatomic particles.
CHILD: Thanks, Elmo. I'm going to ace this test for sure.
MARGARET WILLISON: See? Elmo is one of the best teachers on television. I'm not just saying that either. In one study, researchers found that Elmo did a better job teaching kids than other television characters, and there's a special reason. Elmo is an especially gifted communicator. His way of speaking is sometimes called motherese. That's when you talk in a high-pitched voice with elongated sounds. It makes it easier for very young kids to understand and copy, which helps them get better at language.
And because of Elmo's excellent communication skills, being his friend is really easy, which is why he has some impressive friends, like Michelle Obama, Jimmy Fallon, Yo-Yo Ma, Beyoncé, and so many more. Plus, he's in over a hundred books, several movies, and course, toys.
Elmo is the inspiration for one of the most popular toys of all time, Tickle Me Elmo. Back in 1996, Tickle Me Elmo was such a sensation that it made millions. It increased its company's sales numbers from $70 million to $350 million per year. That would be about $700 million in today's money.
But besides all the great toys, games, and celebrity endorsements, there's a deeper reason why people are so into Elmo. He shows us how to love. He's kind to everyone. He's not shy about showing people when he likes them. And he's a kid himself. He's excited, curious, and filled with wonderment above the world around him. He makes everyone feel special, no matter who you are.
[DOOR OPENS]
ELMO: Hi, Margaret.
MARGARET WILLISON: Elmo, your agent told me you were too busy to say hello.
ELMO: [CHUCKLES] Elmo never too busy for a friend.
MARGARET WILLISON: I love you, Elmo. I love how much you teach, how much you care, and how much you love others.
ELMO: And Elmo loves you, too, because you're really special. [CHUCKLES]
MOLLY BLOOM: Aw, Elmo's showering with education and love, so beautiful. All right, Emma, what stood out to you about Margaret's declaration of greatness?
EMMA: I like how you brought up how you're able to learn new things as a kid, and he does it so much better with the motherese speaking.
MARGARET WILLISON: Mm-hmm.
MOLLY BLOOM: Mm-hmm. All right, Kathryn, it is time for your rebuttal. Tell us why Elmo is a no-no. You've got 30 seconds, and go, go.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: So this study was done in 2015 before Bluey was out, so you can't even use that as a comparison. The Congressional testimony that Elmo was so busy with was in 2010, so that's been a while since it's happened. Tickle Me Elmo, 1996. All of what I'm saying is that Elmo is a classic, sure.
But Elmo is also no longer the character that speaks to the moment. That's not Elmo's fault. Elmo was not designed for this current media landscape. But it is so, so telling that Bluey is now everywhere because it speaks much more of Bluey's--
MOLLY BLOOM: And time.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: --to the moment of parenting right now.
MARGARET WILLISON: I mean, it's great that Bluey speaks to parents, and it's clear that Bluey speaks to seven and 10-year-olds. But sometimes two to three-year-olds need someone, too. And that someone is usually still Elmo.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Yeah, it's a lovely, important, beautiful short period of our lives.
MOLLY BLOOM: [CHUCKLES] Emma, it's time to award some points. You've heard what Margaret and Kathryn have to say. So you're going to give one point to the declaration of greatness you liked best and one point to the rebuttal that won you over. You get to decide what makes a winning argument. Did one team's jokes make you giggle? Was another team's logic impeccable? Award your points, but don't tell us who they're going to. Have you made your decision?
EMMA: I have.
[BELL DINGS]
MOLLY BLOOM: Excellent. Margaret and Kathryn, how are you two feeling so far?
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: I'm feeling great, feeling powerful.
MARGARET WILLISON: [LAUGHS] I'm feeling great. And I'm feeling happy for Emma because I feel like there's no wrong answer here.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Yeah, that's true.
MARGARET WILLISON: There's a righter answer, but there's no wrong answer.
MOLLY BLOOM: Well, it is time for a quick break. Play a quick round of keepy-uppy and do a happy, happy dance-dance.
EMMA: And we'll be right back with more Smash Boom Best.
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: You're listening to State of Debate, home to rage and rhetoric and awe-inspiring argumentation.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: I'm Taylor Lincoln.
TODD DOUGLAS: And I'm Todd Douglas. And a little birdie told me it's someone's birthday. Happy birthday, Taylor.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Aw, shucks, you remembered.
TODD DOUGLAS: Of course. Here, I got you this.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Ooh, I wonder what it is. Whoa, it's a logical fallacy, "That's a poorly made argument."
TODD DOUGLAS: Yep, it's not just any logical fallacy, this one is the loaded question fallacy.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Ooh, I needed that one for my collection. A loaded question is when you make an assumption about something and then ask a question based on that assumption.
TODD DOUGLAS: Yeah, it's like you loaded an assumption into your question. This one comes with an example. Take a listen.
[FILM ROLLING]
MERVIN: Teddy, last thing to plan for the party, what activity should we have for the kids?
TEDDY: That's an easy one, Mervin, definitely a bounce house. They're so fun.
MERVIN: What? No! We should get a face painter, huh?
TEDDY: Yeah, but that involves waiting in line, and it can be messy.
MERVIN: Well, why do you support kids wrestling and throwing each other around in that bounce house? That's much more trouble.
TEDDY: Wait, I don't support that.
MERVIN: So you don't think we should get a bounce house, then, hmm?
TEDDY: What? I meant, yes.
MERVIN: So, Teddy, you are OK with kids roughhousing in an inflatable rubber room?
TEDDY: I-- I mean-- wait.
[BUZZER]
TODD DOUGLAS: Party foul. Mervin is using a loaded question here, big time.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Yeah, Mervin is making an assumption that kids will fight and wrestle in a bounce house, but we don't know that at all. That assumption could be wrong.
TODD DOUGLAS: Yeah, most kids just want to bounce. Let them bounce.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Wow, what a horrible, no-good, terrible fallacy. I love it. Thank you, Todd.
TODD DOUGLAS: You're welcome, pal.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: We'll see you next time on--
BOTH: State of Debate.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: Brains On Universe is a family of podcasts for kids and their adults. Since you're a fan of Smash Boom Best, we know you'll love the other shows in our universe. Come on, let's explore.
[WHOOSHING SOUND]
MARTIAN: Smash Boom Best, I'm their biggest fan. I also love Brains On, a fun science podcast for kids. Listen, I will play you Brains On you will love.
MOLLY BLOOM: Today we're going to turn our attention to bloodsuckers that do exist.
QUINN: Some of them you've probably heard of, like mosquitoes, ticks, and lice.
MOLLY BLOOM: But others might surprise you. Did you know that some birds drink blood?
[BUZZER]
MARTIAN: Zorp! Where did the signal go? Must find Brains On now!
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: Listen to Brains On wherever you get your podcasts.
MAN 1: Boom.
MAN 2: Boom
MAN 1: Boom, boom.
MOLLY BLOOM: Boom.
MAN 1: Boom.
MAN 2: Boom.
MAN 1: Boom, boom.
MOLLY BLOOM: Boom Smash.
MAN 2: Boom.
MAN 1: Best.
MOLLY BLOOM: You're listening to Smash Boom Best. I'm your host, Molly Bloom.
EMMA: And I'm your judge, Emma.
MOLLY BLOOM: And we love getting debate suggestions from our listeners. Take a listen to this athletic debate idea from Milo.
MILO: My name is Milo, and I'm from Brooklyn, New York, USA. My debate idea is Nike's versus Adidas.
EMMA: Shoot! How will I choose?
MOLLY BLOOM: We'll check back in at the end of this episode to see which side Milo thinks should win.
EMMA: And now, it's back to our debate, Bluey versus Elmo.
MOLLY BLOOM: That's right. And it's time for round 2, the--
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: Micro Round.
MOLLY BLOOM: For the Micro Round challenge, each team has prepared a creative response to a prompt they received in advance. For Kathryn and Margaret, the prompt was "life coach," where they had to dream up a motivational speech inspired by their side. Kathryn went first last time. So Margaret, you're up. Give us some Elmo-inspired motivation.
FRANKENSTEIN: Hello, Smash Boom Besties, I'm the creature known as Frankenstein, or worse, Frankenstein's monster. Monster, it's a name you get called a lot when you're a brute hastily assembled from other people's body parts by a mad scientist. But no matter how often I heard it, I never got used to it.
Just because my heart was snatched from someone else's chest doesn't mean it can't break, you know? I would rage and rampage, becoming the monster everyone thought I was. That is, until I found life coach Elmo's groundbreaking video course, Love Your Monster, Love the World. Elmo, a fellow monster, showed me that I did not have to be what everyone expected. I could imagine something better.
Through Elmo's sweetness and warmth, I learned that if I greeted the world with curiosity and kindness, the world would learn to love me, and I could love myself. With Love Your Monster, I began to look at my monstrous form in a whole new way. Was my massive Frankenstein body destined to wreak havoc upon townspeople's homes, or was it perfect for giving group piggyback rides?
Would villagers mind that my long arms were stolen property if I used them to clear out their gutters, if I applied my freakish strength to opening stubborn pickle jars instead of fracturing delicate bones? Might people smile when they saw me coming rather than fleeing? With life coach Elmo's teachings, I went from social outcast to beloved town mascot in a matter of weeks. Thanks to Elmo, I am now proud to call myself a monster.
MOLLY BLOOM: Beautiful, Elmo helping monsters with their self-love. All right, Kathryn, now it is your turn. Teach us some life lessons, Bluey style.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Bluey is an incredible guide to life, and I can prove it. Here are my very real kids talking about the things that they have learned while watching Bluey.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
CHILD 1: In Shadowlands, Bluey tells you that the rules are what make a game fun and also so much more satisfying to win. That's why it's really important to play by the rules.
CHILD 2: In sleepy time, Bingo is afraid of sleeping in her own bed, but she has a dream about outer space, and her mom is the sun. Her mom tells her, I'll always love you even when I'm not right next to you.
CHILD 1: There's an episode called "Butterflies," and it's all about how it's not nice to leave a kid behind, no matter what they can or can't do.
CHILD 2: The episode "Pool," is about how sometimes you have to do boring things before you can do fun things because sometimes boring things are important.
CHILD 1: There's a really good episode called "Camping." And in that one, mom talks about how we don't always know how long people we love will be in our lives, but we can be grateful for them while we have them.
CHILD 2: Bluey's dad teaches Bingo and Bluey that ice cream tastes better when you earn it.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: And because Bluey is not just a show for kids, it's also great at giving advice for parents, like, remind your kids to pee before they leave for a car trip. In Bluey, this is called a "tactical wee." Try not to compare your kids to other kids in their class. Parents just need to help kids be the best possible versions of themselves.
And my personal favorite, it's all right if your car is messy and the backseat is full of crumbs, your kids don't care. All they care about is spending time with you.
MOLLY BLOOM: Aw, Bluey helping all of us be our own life coaches, so good. All right, Emma, what did you like about Kathryn and Margaret's micro rounds?
EMMA: I loved that you can have self-love and love yourself like you're a monster. And I loved hearing all the kids' experiences about how they have learned from Bluey.
MOLLY BLOOM: Both excellent micro rounds. But I am sorry to say, Emma, that only one of them can get a point.
EMMA: Aw.
MOLLY BLOOM: The criteria are totally subjective and totally up to you. It's time to award a point, but don't tell us who it's going to. Have you made your decision?
EMMA: Yes.
[BELL DINGS]
MOLLY BLOOM: Fantastic. Then it's time for our third round, the super stealthy--
MAN: A-ha hoo-ha!
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: Sneak Attack.
MOLLY BLOOM: This is our improvised round where debaters have to respond to a challenge on the spot. Today's Sneak Attack is called 3, 2, 1, list off. You and your opponent will go back and forth listing characters within your side's universe until one person runs out of names. Debaters, does that make sense to you?
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Yes.
MARGARET WILLISON: I understand. I understand.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Yes, I got it.
MOLLY BLOOM: All right, we're going to start with Kathryn, then Margaret, then back and forth as long as you can go. So, Kathryn, take it away.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: All right, Bluey.
MARGARET WILLISON: Elmo.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Bingo.
MARGARET WILLISON: Big Bird.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Bandit.
MARGARET WILLISON: Oscar the Grouch.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Chilli.
MARGARET WILLISON: Snuffleupagus.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Snickers.
MARGARET WILLISON: Guy Smiley.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Lila.
MARGARET WILLISON: The Count.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Lucky's dad.
MARGARET WILLISON: Kermit the Frog.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Lucky.
MARGARET WILLISON: I think Kathryn has psyched me out. I won successfully.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: But I didn't even get to Lucky's little brother--
MARGARET WILLISON: No, I know.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: --who's name is Chucky.
MARGARET WILLISON: I was prepared for something so different. I brought my-- I brought my creative mind. I didn't bring my trivia mind.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Oh, yeah.
MARGARET WILLISON: But this is really beautiful because Kathryn and I have played trivia together. And usually, she is the one who has this response.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: It's so true. I always freak out.
MARGARET WILLISON: And the skills were really tilted in my favor because Sesame Street is such a deep bench.
MOLLY BLOOM: That's true. So many good characters in both of these wonderful shows. And for those listening at home, Kathryn and Margaret have been friends for 20 years, so they have a lot of experience playing games and doing trivia together.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: It's true.
MOLLY BLOOM: Emma, it's time to award a point. You can award the point to the team that won, or you can award the point to the team that impressed you the most. Have you made your decision?
EMMA: Yes, I have.
[BELL DINGS]
MOLLY BLOOM: Wonderful. Then it's time for our final round--
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: The Final Six.
MOLLY BLOOM: In this round, each team will have just six words to sum up the glory of their side. Margaret, let's hear your six words for the enthusiastic Elmo.
MARGARET WILLISON: Elmo is love. Love conquers all.
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh, very nice. All right, Kathryn, it's your turn. Give us six words on why Bluey is best.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Elmo loves you. Kids love Bluey.
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh, very good.
EMMA: Good.
MOLLY BLOOM: All right, Emma, it is time to award a final point for this Final Six. Have you made your decision?
EMMA: I believe so.
[BELL DINGS]
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh my goodness, tally up those points. Are you ready to crown one team the Smash Boom Best?
EMMA: Yes, I am.
MOLLY BLOOM: Drumroll, please. And the winner is--
EMMA: Bluey.
[FANFARE]
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Yes!
MARGARET WILLISON: Mm, fair. As soon as I heard Kathryn's kids' voices, I knew I was toast.
[LAUGHTER]
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: I know. I really-- it was a low blow, but I had to do it.
MARGARET WILLISON: And unfortunately, the biggest Elmo fan in my life right now is mostly pre-verbal. But I could have sent you a really compelling picture of my best friend's one-year-old holding her little Elmo doll like her life depends on it.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: That's Elmo for you, it's one-year-olds.
MARGARET WILLISON: Well, I'm sorry that my brilliant children's character speaks more to pre- and early verbal children.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: No, I know.
MARGARET WILLISON: It does put him at a disadvantage. But I hope that you love and acknowledge his work and how it shaped a world that made Bluey possible.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: It is. It's so, so important. Bluey would never have existed without a character like Elmo first. Elmo is this radical revolutionary figure for children's television. I'm deeply grateful to Elmo.
MARGARET WILLISON: Good.
EMMA: Elmo is the best.
MARGARET WILLISON: I'm glad we all agree.
[LAUGHTER]
MOLLY BLOOM: Well, that is it for today's debate battle. Emma crowned Bluey the Smash Boom Best. But what about you?
EMMA: Head over to smashboom.org and vote to tell us who you think won.
MOLLY BLOOM: Smash Boom Best is brought to you by Brains On and APM Studios. It's produced by me, Molly Bloom--
ANNA WEGGEL: --Anna Weggel--
MOLLY BLOOM: --and--
ARON WOLDESLASSIE: --Aron Woldeslassie.
MOLLY BLOOM: We had engineering help from Jess Berg, Jacob Raki, and Renee Chavez with sound design by Anna Weggel. Our editors are--
SHAHLA FARZAN: --Shahla Farzan--
MOLLY BLOOM: --and--
SANDEN TOTTEN: --Sanden Totten.
MOLLY BLOOM: And we had production help from the rest of the Brains On Universe team.
ROSIE DUPONT: --Rosie duPont--
RACHEL BREES: --Rachel Brees--
ANNA GOLDFIELD: --Anna Goldfield--
NICO GONZALEZ WISLER: --Nico Gonzalez Wisler--
RUBY GUTHRIE: --Ruby Guthrie--
LAUREN HUMPERT: --Lauren Humpert--
JESS MILLER: --Jess Miller--
JOSHUA RAY: --Joshua Ray--
MARC SANCHEZ: --Marc Sanchez--
MOLLY BLOOM: --and--
CHARLOTTE TRAVER: --Charlotte Traver.
MOLLY BLOOM: Our executive producer is Beth Pearlman and the APM Studios executives in charge are Chandra Kavati and Joanne Griffith. Our announcer is Marley Feuerwerker-Otto. And we want to give a special thanks to Austin Cross, Taylor Kaufman, Phoebe Bowers, Evelyn Ann Tatum. Kathryn, is there anyone you'd like to give a shout-out to today?
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Yes, I first, of course, need to give a shout-out to Margaret, who has been one of the best friends in my life for a very, very, very long time. And I'm so grateful that she is here to do this with me today. It makes it so special for me and for my kids also who love Margaret very dearly.
I also need to shout-out to our friend Andrew, who wrote the line, "Blue Heeler heart-stealer," to my nieces, Caroline and Phoebe, who are my kids' muffin and socks, and we love them so much. I need to shout-out to Andrew's son, Henry, whose love of Bluey is deeply, deeply inspiring, to my husband, and then of course, to my kids, Claire and Alice, who, they're just-- I mean, they did such great work for this episode. They helped me so much. And their love of Bluey is why I'm here right now.
MOLLY BLOOM: That is wonderful. Margaret, any special shout-outs you want to give?
MARGARET WILLISON: I would love to give a shout-out also to Alice and Claire. I just want them to know that even though they've betrayed me on the public stage this way, they're still two of my favorite children in the entire world, and nothing will ever change that. And then I want to give a shout-out to my other best friend, Carrie, and her wonderful daughter, Eleanor.
And Eleanor, I need you to know, when you're old enough, to listen to this podcast and understand the crushing defeat we've suffered here that I fought bravely for you and I always will.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: I love you, too, Eleanor.
MARGARET WILLISON: And I love, Kathryn. Kathryn, thank you for getting me involved in this and introducing me to Smash Boom Best. It's a terrific fictional universe, and I'm delighted to have participated.
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh my gosh, thank you for being here, both of you. Emma, any special thanks you want to give?
EMMA: I would like to give a special thanks to all my besties who've helped support me, Evelyn, Will, Caviar, Chloe, the list goes on and on, Meredith, also Westlake for supporting me. And I would also like to give a mini shout-out to Kathryn, Margaret, and Molly for being able to have a great debate today.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Oh, Emma.
MARGARET WILLISON: Thanks, Emma.
MOLLY BLOOM: Before we go, let's check in and see who Milo thinks should win the Nike versus Adidas debate.
MILO: I think Nike's would win because Nike has Air Jordans, and they are really cool shoes, and it is named after a Greek goddess.
MOLLY BLOOM: If you're between the ages of 13 and 18, and you'd like to be a judge, or if you're any age, and you have an idea for a knock-down, drag-out debate, head to smashboom.org/contact and drop us a line. And make sure to subscribe to Brains On Universe on YouTube where you can watch animated versions of some of your favorite episodes. That's it for this season of Smash Boom Best. We'll be back with a brand new season, February 6.
In the meantime, you can enjoy episodes from all the shows in the Brains On Universe, including Brains On, Forever Ago, and Moment of Um. Bye-bye.
EMMA: Bye. See you everyone, later.
MARGARET WILLISON: Auf Wiedersehen.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Bye.
[THEME MUSIC] Ooh, you're the Smash Boom Best
Ooh, put you through the test
Ooh, you're the Smash Boom Best
Ooh, better than the rest
It's the Smash Boom Best
You're the Smash Boom Best
MARGARET WILLISON: I guess raising your children and having them be such delightful humans is a lot of work, and I can't pretend it isn't. But also, it does feel a little bit like cheating.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: No, I know, that's fair. That's fine. I accept that.
EMMA: The show for people with big opinions.
MOLLY BLOOM: Hi, I'm Molly Bloom, and this is Smash Boom Best, the show where we take two things, smash them together, and ask you to decide which one is best. Today's debate is a showdown between two lovable characters. One is a playful pup from down under and one is a giggling, ticklish monster. It's Bluey versus Elmo. For Team Bluey, we've got the writer of the forthcoming book, The Bluey Years. It's Kathryn VanArendonk.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Blue Heeler heart-stealer, go Blue.
MOLLY BLOOM: [CHUCKLES] And representing Team Elmo, it's culture writer and podcaster Margaret H. Willison.
MARGARET WILLISON: Elmo is red and losers are blue.
MOLLY BLOOM: [CHUCKLES] And here to judge it all is Emma from Austin, Texas. Emma has three cats and a collection of freshwater fish, is an avid listener of Smash Boom Best with her two little brothers-- hi, guys, and has a passion for making her own earrings. Hi, Emma.
EMMA: Hi, how are you today?
MOLLY BLOOM: I am great. I'm so happy that you're here. So, Emma, you clearly love pets. Last time we talked to you, you were hoping to procure a pet python. Did your dream come true?
EMMA: Sadly, it did not. That is still in the making. But I have not gotten one yet.
MOLLY BLOOM: It's only a matter of time, I'm sure. Can you please tell me the names of your cats?
EMMA: I have Rex and Cinnamon and Flitwick.
MOLLY BLOOM: Aw. Do you have a favorite, or do they all have their own spot in your heart?
EMMA: They all are super special. But I think if I had to pick a favorite, I would go with my cat Flitwick because he reminds me of Harry Potter.
MOLLY BLOOM: Fair. And I know that you are a clarinet player in a very good marching band. Can you tell us a little bit about what it's like to be like in a competitive marching band?
EMMA: It is pretty exciting. We get to go to all these different competitions throughout the years. And we actually just recently went to our first competition of this season. And we placed sixth at the most competitive marching contest in the US.
MOLLY BLOOM: That is so cool.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: That's very cool.
MARGARET WILLISON: Yes.
MOLLY BLOOM: So, do you have any advice for our debaters today?
EMMA: I love puns, and always try your best to have fun.
MOLLY BLOOM: Will Emma side with Kathryn or Margaret? Only time will tell. But first, here are the rules of the game. Every debate consists of four rounds, the Declaration of Greatness, the Micro Round, the Sneak Attack, and the Final Six. After each round, our judge will, Emma, award points to the team that impresses her the most. But she'll keep her decisions top secret until the end of the debate.
Listeners, we want you to judge, too. Mark down your points as you listen. At the end of the show, head to our website, smashboom.org, and vote for whichever team you think won. All right, Kathryn, Margaret, and Emma, are you ready?
EMMA: Oh, yes.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Absolutely. Let's go. Let's do it.
MARGARET WILLISON: I can't wait to hear everyone's arguments.
MOLLY BLOOM: Then it's time for the--
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: Declaration of Greatness.
MOLLY BLOOM: In this round, our debaters will present a well-crafted, immersive argument in favor of their side. Then they'll each have 30 seconds to rebut their opponent's statements. We flipped a coin, and Kathryn, you're up first. Tell us what makes Bluey totally paw-some.
SPEAKER: Hey, friends, and welcome to this year's Disney D23 Expo. This mega convention happens once a year in California. And it's where all the new movies and games are announced. Plus, we get to celebrate the biggest and most exciting characters in the world. Woo! And there are thousands of fans here waiting to meet their favorite characters. Oh, the energy is just incredible. Let's go.
[DOOR OPENS]
Oh, over here, we've got an Avatar booth. Whoa, it looks just like the movie, yeah! And over here, we've got Baby Yoda. Hi. Oh, those ears, so cute. Wait, hang on. Who's that there with the huge crowd lined up around them? Oh, my biscuits! It's Bluey and Bingo! We can meet them? In person? Oh, and I get to see inside their house? Bluey! Bingo! Over here, yeah! Hi, I'm your biggest fan. Oh, this is the best expo ever!
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: That was a dramatic reenactment of something that actually happened at this year's Disney D23 Expo, at a convention chockful of exciting attractions and big stars. Huge crowds lined up for a chance to meet their two favorite pups, the boisterous Blue Heeler dog, Bluey, and her little sister, Bingo.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
The hit Australian animated show takes place in a world full of adorable dogs. In each episode, Bluey and her family play games and do normal family stuff in a way that reminds us that regular life can also be an adventure. Since it premiered in 2018, Bluey has soared to worldwide acclaim. But why is this little dog so universally adored?
First, unlike a certain high-pitched red muppet I could name, Bluey sounds, acts, and plays like a real kid. She's funny. She's happy. She can be sad. She misbehaves. She gets frustrated. She makes up silly games. She loves her parents and her friends. Her life is complex and multifaceted, just like all of us. And her voice matches her personality.
Bluey and all of the kid characters in her world are voiced by real kids. When we hear them, we hear real childhood. Just listen to me saying a sentence. Hello, my name is Blueberries, and I hate to eat blueberries. Now, here's my seven-year-old.
CHILD: Hello, my name is Blueberries, and I hate to eat blueberries, blah, blah, blah, bloop.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: So much more fun, right? And like a kid, Bluey learns by playing. It's how real kids learn, and it's a great way to teach viewers at home. Think about how annoying it is when someone just tells you a lesson.
SPEAKER: And that's why it's so important to share.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Compare that with how much more fun and meaningful it is when you learn something through experience.
CHILD 1: And then I'll meet Mr. Argle Bargle. And then I can also be Captain Peanut Shorts, but I can also be Monsieur Mustard Seed. But I just need to hold them all together while also grabbing them.
CHILD 2: Maybe if you'd let somebody else play with Mr. Argle Bargle, the imaginary continent would not be in such a risk of terrible destruction from your own elbows.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Maybe the coolest thing about Bluey is that she brings families together. Most kid TV characters have a limited age range, but adults, especially parents, legitimately love Bluey. Viewing data from the last year shows that Bluey is one of the most watched TV shows in the world. And it's the most watched show in the entire United States, not just for kids TV, for everything, over 35 billion minutes.
I am a parent, and I like Bluey. I like it so much that I decided to write an entire book about her, for grown-ups, a book for grown-ups. It's because the show is just as much about Bluey's parents, Bandit and Chili. Bluey doesn't just show kids how to be great kids, it's a show about how families love each other, reminding parents that their kids are people, showing kids that their parents are people, too.
It's a show about humanity, even though they're-- they're dogs. No other kids character can so easily speak to five-year-olds, 10-year-olds, and parents. Bluey acts like a real kid. She learns by playing, and she understands the most important lesson, a kids TV character shouldn't just be for kids. She should be for everyone.
MOLLY BLOOM: Well, as the Heeler family says, hooray! That was delightful. Emma, what stood out to you about Kathryn's declaration of greatness?
EMMA: I didn't know kids voiced Bluey characters. I thought that was very interesting and how we all bring people together. And it is the most watched show in the US. I didn't know that.
MOLLY BLOOM: For real life. All right, Margaret, it's time for your rebuttal. Tell us why Bluey should be renamed Boo-ey. You've got 30 seconds. And your time starts now.
MARGARET WILLISON: I'm so thrilled to hear that Bluey was such a hit at D23. And when she's maintained that level of popularity for close to 45 years, she can come and talk to Elmo and maybe get a little bit of advice about how to manage that degree of fame and popularity.
I love what Kathryn had to say about how Bluey brings families together, and I do think that's really special. But I also think there's something incredibly special about characters who exist, particularly for toddlers, particularly for small, small children--
MOLLY BLOOM: And time.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Well, I mean, I understand that Elmo has been around for 45 years. I mean, my question is, like, what has Elmo done for us lately? I think-- I'm in Target a lot. I'm seeing a lot of Bluey toys out there. I'm seeing a lot of Bluey books. I'm telling you, the Elmo diapers, they're not going as fast as they used to.
MARGARET WILLISON: I guess Elmo was just too busy being a announcer and commentator at the Olympics when you were at Target last, Kathryn.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Oh, yeah. How's Elmo's recent late night show going? They canceled it after two seasons, didn't they?
MARGARET WILLISON: Look, Rocco the Rock undermined that show, and it is not Elmo's fault.
[LAUGHTER]
MOLLY BLOOM: All right, Margaret, it is your turn. Tell us what makes Elmo so tickle-tastic.
MARGARET WILLISON: I think the best way to start a debate about Elmo is by hearing from the monster himself, which is why I've come to Sesame Street.
[KNOCKS ON DOOR]
[DOOR OPENS]
VICKI JIVE: Well, who are you? Wait, it doesn't matter. Mr. Elmo is far too busy meeting with fans today.
MARGARET WILLISON: Oh, I'm not a fan. Well, I mean, I am, but-- wait, who are you?
VICKI JIVE: [COUGHS] I'm Vicki Jive, Mr. Elmo's agent. Elmo is so busy teaching, playing, dancing, and learning that he simply doesn't have time for a meet-and-greet.
MARGARET WILLISON: It'll only take a second.
VICKI JIVE: That's the thing, he doesn't have a second. From 7:00 to 11:00, he's taping Sesame Street, from 11:00 to 1:00, he's testifying before the House Appropriations Subcommittee on Labor, Health and Human Services and Education, 1:00 to 2:00, he's having a working lunch with Dorothy the Goldfish and Cookie Monster, 2:00 to 4:00, he's recording his cameos for Good Morning America, 4:00 to 6:00, he's posing for a new toy-- that's embargoed, by the way, 6:00 to 7:00, he has a dinner meeting with Grover and Zendaya, and then by 8:00, he's tucked into bed with a book about himself.
MARGARET WILLISON: Why is Elmo's schedule so tight?
VICKI JIVE: Because he's that lovable. But if it helps you, I'm willing to let you do an Elmo impression when he's not around.
MARGARET WILLISON: Like this? [IMITATES ELMO'S CHUCKLE]
VICKI JIVE: Yeah, that's, um, fine. I mean, it's terrible, but it'll do. Anyway, thanks for coming by, and thanks even more for leaving.
[DOOR SLAMS SHUT]
MARGARET WILLISON: Wow, Elmo is really popular. If you didn't already know, he's a darling three-and-a half-year-old red monster, who's been our friend since he first came on the scene in 1980. There are so many special things about Elmo. While other TV characters want to tell you what to do or what to think, he wants to show you new things and have fun. That's why Elmo makes such a good friend.
And you don't have to take my word for it. Just ask Big Bird or the Count or Rosita. All of them will tell you that with Elmo by your side, you can learn anything.
CHILD: Why are fractions so hard?
ELMO: You can do it. You just have to take it step by step, divide and conquer. [CHUCKLES]
CHILD: Thanks, Elmo. And since I have you, why is quantum mechanics so hard?
ELMO: Because it explains the strange behavior of subatomic particles.
CHILD: Thanks, Elmo. I'm going to ace this test for sure.
MARGARET WILLISON: See? Elmo is one of the best teachers on television. I'm not just saying that either. In one study, researchers found that Elmo did a better job teaching kids than other television characters, and there's a special reason. Elmo is an especially gifted communicator. His way of speaking is sometimes called motherese. That's when you talk in a high-pitched voice with elongated sounds. It makes it easier for very young kids to understand and copy, which helps them get better at language.
And because of Elmo's excellent communication skills, being his friend is really easy, which is why he has some impressive friends, like Michelle Obama, Jimmy Fallon, Yo-Yo Ma, Beyoncé, and so many more. Plus, he's in over a hundred books, several movies, and course, toys.
Elmo is the inspiration for one of the most popular toys of all time, Tickle Me Elmo. Back in 1996, Tickle Me Elmo was such a sensation that it made millions. It increased its company's sales numbers from $70 million to $350 million per year. That would be about $700 million in today's money.
But besides all the great toys, games, and celebrity endorsements, there's a deeper reason why people are so into Elmo. He shows us how to love. He's kind to everyone. He's not shy about showing people when he likes them. And he's a kid himself. He's excited, curious, and filled with wonderment above the world around him. He makes everyone feel special, no matter who you are.
[DOOR OPENS]
ELMO: Hi, Margaret.
MARGARET WILLISON: Elmo, your agent told me you were too busy to say hello.
ELMO: [CHUCKLES] Elmo never too busy for a friend.
MARGARET WILLISON: I love you, Elmo. I love how much you teach, how much you care, and how much you love others.
ELMO: And Elmo loves you, too, because you're really special. [CHUCKLES]
MOLLY BLOOM: Aw, Elmo's showering with education and love, so beautiful. All right, Emma, what stood out to you about Margaret's declaration of greatness?
EMMA: I like how you brought up how you're able to learn new things as a kid, and he does it so much better with the motherese speaking.
MARGARET WILLISON: Mm-hmm.
MOLLY BLOOM: Mm-hmm. All right, Kathryn, it is time for your rebuttal. Tell us why Elmo is a no-no. You've got 30 seconds, and go, go.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: So this study was done in 2015 before Bluey was out, so you can't even use that as a comparison. The Congressional testimony that Elmo was so busy with was in 2010, so that's been a while since it's happened. Tickle Me Elmo, 1996. All of what I'm saying is that Elmo is a classic, sure.
But Elmo is also no longer the character that speaks to the moment. That's not Elmo's fault. Elmo was not designed for this current media landscape. But it is so, so telling that Bluey is now everywhere because it speaks much more of Bluey's--
MOLLY BLOOM: And time.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: --to the moment of parenting right now.
MARGARET WILLISON: I mean, it's great that Bluey speaks to parents, and it's clear that Bluey speaks to seven and 10-year-olds. But sometimes two to three-year-olds need someone, too. And that someone is usually still Elmo.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Yeah, it's a lovely, important, beautiful short period of our lives.
MOLLY BLOOM: [CHUCKLES] Emma, it's time to award some points. You've heard what Margaret and Kathryn have to say. So you're going to give one point to the declaration of greatness you liked best and one point to the rebuttal that won you over. You get to decide what makes a winning argument. Did one team's jokes make you giggle? Was another team's logic impeccable? Award your points, but don't tell us who they're going to. Have you made your decision?
EMMA: I have.
[BELL DINGS]
MOLLY BLOOM: Excellent. Margaret and Kathryn, how are you two feeling so far?
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: I'm feeling great, feeling powerful.
MARGARET WILLISON: [LAUGHS] I'm feeling great. And I'm feeling happy for Emma because I feel like there's no wrong answer here.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Yeah, that's true.
MARGARET WILLISON: There's a righter answer, but there's no wrong answer.
MOLLY BLOOM: Well, it is time for a quick break. Play a quick round of keepy-uppy and do a happy, happy dance-dance.
EMMA: And we'll be right back with more Smash Boom Best.
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: You're listening to State of Debate, home to rage and rhetoric and awe-inspiring argumentation.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: I'm Taylor Lincoln.
TODD DOUGLAS: And I'm Todd Douglas. And a little birdie told me it's someone's birthday. Happy birthday, Taylor.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Aw, shucks, you remembered.
TODD DOUGLAS: Of course. Here, I got you this.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Ooh, I wonder what it is. Whoa, it's a logical fallacy, "That's a poorly made argument."
TODD DOUGLAS: Yep, it's not just any logical fallacy, this one is the loaded question fallacy.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Ooh, I needed that one for my collection. A loaded question is when you make an assumption about something and then ask a question based on that assumption.
TODD DOUGLAS: Yeah, it's like you loaded an assumption into your question. This one comes with an example. Take a listen.
[FILM ROLLING]
MERVIN: Teddy, last thing to plan for the party, what activity should we have for the kids?
TEDDY: That's an easy one, Mervin, definitely a bounce house. They're so fun.
MERVIN: What? No! We should get a face painter, huh?
TEDDY: Yeah, but that involves waiting in line, and it can be messy.
MERVIN: Well, why do you support kids wrestling and throwing each other around in that bounce house? That's much more trouble.
TEDDY: Wait, I don't support that.
MERVIN: So you don't think we should get a bounce house, then, hmm?
TEDDY: What? I meant, yes.
MERVIN: So, Teddy, you are OK with kids roughhousing in an inflatable rubber room?
TEDDY: I-- I mean-- wait.
[BUZZER]
TODD DOUGLAS: Party foul. Mervin is using a loaded question here, big time.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Yeah, Mervin is making an assumption that kids will fight and wrestle in a bounce house, but we don't know that at all. That assumption could be wrong.
TODD DOUGLAS: Yeah, most kids just want to bounce. Let them bounce.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Wow, what a horrible, no-good, terrible fallacy. I love it. Thank you, Todd.
TODD DOUGLAS: You're welcome, pal.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: We'll see you next time on--
BOTH: State of Debate.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: Brains On Universe is a family of podcasts for kids and their adults. Since you're a fan of Smash Boom Best, we know you'll love the other shows in our universe. Come on, let's explore.
[WHOOSHING SOUND]
MARTIAN: Smash Boom Best, I'm their biggest fan. I also love Brains On, a fun science podcast for kids. Listen, I will play you Brains On you will love.
MOLLY BLOOM: Today we're going to turn our attention to bloodsuckers that do exist.
QUINN: Some of them you've probably heard of, like mosquitoes, ticks, and lice.
MOLLY BLOOM: But others might surprise you. Did you know that some birds drink blood?
[BUZZER]
MARTIAN: Zorp! Where did the signal go? Must find Brains On now!
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: Listen to Brains On wherever you get your podcasts.
MAN 1: Boom.
MAN 2: Boom
MAN 1: Boom, boom.
MOLLY BLOOM: Boom.
MAN 1: Boom.
MAN 2: Boom.
MAN 1: Boom, boom.
MOLLY BLOOM: Boom Smash.
MAN 2: Boom.
MAN 1: Best.
MOLLY BLOOM: You're listening to Smash Boom Best. I'm your host, Molly Bloom.
EMMA: And I'm your judge, Emma.
MOLLY BLOOM: And we love getting debate suggestions from our listeners. Take a listen to this athletic debate idea from Milo.
MILO: My name is Milo, and I'm from Brooklyn, New York, USA. My debate idea is Nike's versus Adidas.
EMMA: Shoot! How will I choose?
MOLLY BLOOM: We'll check back in at the end of this episode to see which side Milo thinks should win.
EMMA: And now, it's back to our debate, Bluey versus Elmo.
MOLLY BLOOM: That's right. And it's time for round 2, the--
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: Micro Round.
MOLLY BLOOM: For the Micro Round challenge, each team has prepared a creative response to a prompt they received in advance. For Kathryn and Margaret, the prompt was "life coach," where they had to dream up a motivational speech inspired by their side. Kathryn went first last time. So Margaret, you're up. Give us some Elmo-inspired motivation.
FRANKENSTEIN: Hello, Smash Boom Besties, I'm the creature known as Frankenstein, or worse, Frankenstein's monster. Monster, it's a name you get called a lot when you're a brute hastily assembled from other people's body parts by a mad scientist. But no matter how often I heard it, I never got used to it.
Just because my heart was snatched from someone else's chest doesn't mean it can't break, you know? I would rage and rampage, becoming the monster everyone thought I was. That is, until I found life coach Elmo's groundbreaking video course, Love Your Monster, Love the World. Elmo, a fellow monster, showed me that I did not have to be what everyone expected. I could imagine something better.
Through Elmo's sweetness and warmth, I learned that if I greeted the world with curiosity and kindness, the world would learn to love me, and I could love myself. With Love Your Monster, I began to look at my monstrous form in a whole new way. Was my massive Frankenstein body destined to wreak havoc upon townspeople's homes, or was it perfect for giving group piggyback rides?
Would villagers mind that my long arms were stolen property if I used them to clear out their gutters, if I applied my freakish strength to opening stubborn pickle jars instead of fracturing delicate bones? Might people smile when they saw me coming rather than fleeing? With life coach Elmo's teachings, I went from social outcast to beloved town mascot in a matter of weeks. Thanks to Elmo, I am now proud to call myself a monster.
MOLLY BLOOM: Beautiful, Elmo helping monsters with their self-love. All right, Kathryn, now it is your turn. Teach us some life lessons, Bluey style.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Bluey is an incredible guide to life, and I can prove it. Here are my very real kids talking about the things that they have learned while watching Bluey.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
CHILD 1: In Shadowlands, Bluey tells you that the rules are what make a game fun and also so much more satisfying to win. That's why it's really important to play by the rules.
CHILD 2: In sleepy time, Bingo is afraid of sleeping in her own bed, but she has a dream about outer space, and her mom is the sun. Her mom tells her, I'll always love you even when I'm not right next to you.
CHILD 1: There's an episode called "Butterflies," and it's all about how it's not nice to leave a kid behind, no matter what they can or can't do.
CHILD 2: The episode "Pool," is about how sometimes you have to do boring things before you can do fun things because sometimes boring things are important.
CHILD 1: There's a really good episode called "Camping." And in that one, mom talks about how we don't always know how long people we love will be in our lives, but we can be grateful for them while we have them.
CHILD 2: Bluey's dad teaches Bingo and Bluey that ice cream tastes better when you earn it.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: And because Bluey is not just a show for kids, it's also great at giving advice for parents, like, remind your kids to pee before they leave for a car trip. In Bluey, this is called a "tactical wee." Try not to compare your kids to other kids in their class. Parents just need to help kids be the best possible versions of themselves.
And my personal favorite, it's all right if your car is messy and the backseat is full of crumbs, your kids don't care. All they care about is spending time with you.
MOLLY BLOOM: Aw, Bluey helping all of us be our own life coaches, so good. All right, Emma, what did you like about Kathryn and Margaret's micro rounds?
EMMA: I loved that you can have self-love and love yourself like you're a monster. And I loved hearing all the kids' experiences about how they have learned from Bluey.
MOLLY BLOOM: Both excellent micro rounds. But I am sorry to say, Emma, that only one of them can get a point.
EMMA: Aw.
MOLLY BLOOM: The criteria are totally subjective and totally up to you. It's time to award a point, but don't tell us who it's going to. Have you made your decision?
EMMA: Yes.
[BELL DINGS]
MOLLY BLOOM: Fantastic. Then it's time for our third round, the super stealthy--
MAN: A-ha hoo-ha!
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: Sneak Attack.
MOLLY BLOOM: This is our improvised round where debaters have to respond to a challenge on the spot. Today's Sneak Attack is called 3, 2, 1, list off. You and your opponent will go back and forth listing characters within your side's universe until one person runs out of names. Debaters, does that make sense to you?
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Yes.
MARGARET WILLISON: I understand. I understand.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Yes, I got it.
MOLLY BLOOM: All right, we're going to start with Kathryn, then Margaret, then back and forth as long as you can go. So, Kathryn, take it away.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: All right, Bluey.
MARGARET WILLISON: Elmo.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Bingo.
MARGARET WILLISON: Big Bird.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Bandit.
MARGARET WILLISON: Oscar the Grouch.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Chilli.
MARGARET WILLISON: Snuffleupagus.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Snickers.
MARGARET WILLISON: Guy Smiley.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Lila.
MARGARET WILLISON: The Count.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Lucky's dad.
MARGARET WILLISON: Kermit the Frog.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Lucky.
MARGARET WILLISON: I think Kathryn has psyched me out. I won successfully.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: But I didn't even get to Lucky's little brother--
MARGARET WILLISON: No, I know.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: --who's name is Chucky.
MARGARET WILLISON: I was prepared for something so different. I brought my-- I brought my creative mind. I didn't bring my trivia mind.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Oh, yeah.
MARGARET WILLISON: But this is really beautiful because Kathryn and I have played trivia together. And usually, she is the one who has this response.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: It's so true. I always freak out.
MARGARET WILLISON: And the skills were really tilted in my favor because Sesame Street is such a deep bench.
MOLLY BLOOM: That's true. So many good characters in both of these wonderful shows. And for those listening at home, Kathryn and Margaret have been friends for 20 years, so they have a lot of experience playing games and doing trivia together.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: It's true.
MOLLY BLOOM: Emma, it's time to award a point. You can award the point to the team that won, or you can award the point to the team that impressed you the most. Have you made your decision?
EMMA: Yes, I have.
[BELL DINGS]
MOLLY BLOOM: Wonderful. Then it's time for our final round--
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: The Final Six.
MOLLY BLOOM: In this round, each team will have just six words to sum up the glory of their side. Margaret, let's hear your six words for the enthusiastic Elmo.
MARGARET WILLISON: Elmo is love. Love conquers all.
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh, very nice. All right, Kathryn, it's your turn. Give us six words on why Bluey is best.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Elmo loves you. Kids love Bluey.
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh, very good.
EMMA: Good.
MOLLY BLOOM: All right, Emma, it is time to award a final point for this Final Six. Have you made your decision?
EMMA: I believe so.
[BELL DINGS]
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh my goodness, tally up those points. Are you ready to crown one team the Smash Boom Best?
EMMA: Yes, I am.
MOLLY BLOOM: Drumroll, please. And the winner is--
EMMA: Bluey.
[FANFARE]
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Yes!
MARGARET WILLISON: Mm, fair. As soon as I heard Kathryn's kids' voices, I knew I was toast.
[LAUGHTER]
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: I know. I really-- it was a low blow, but I had to do it.
MARGARET WILLISON: And unfortunately, the biggest Elmo fan in my life right now is mostly pre-verbal. But I could have sent you a really compelling picture of my best friend's one-year-old holding her little Elmo doll like her life depends on it.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: That's Elmo for you, it's one-year-olds.
MARGARET WILLISON: Well, I'm sorry that my brilliant children's character speaks more to pre- and early verbal children.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: No, I know.
MARGARET WILLISON: It does put him at a disadvantage. But I hope that you love and acknowledge his work and how it shaped a world that made Bluey possible.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: It is. It's so, so important. Bluey would never have existed without a character like Elmo first. Elmo is this radical revolutionary figure for children's television. I'm deeply grateful to Elmo.
MARGARET WILLISON: Good.
EMMA: Elmo is the best.
MARGARET WILLISON: I'm glad we all agree.
[LAUGHTER]
MOLLY BLOOM: Well, that is it for today's debate battle. Emma crowned Bluey the Smash Boom Best. But what about you?
EMMA: Head over to smashboom.org and vote to tell us who you think won.
MOLLY BLOOM: Smash Boom Best is brought to you by Brains On and APM Studios. It's produced by me, Molly Bloom--
ANNA WEGGEL: --Anna Weggel--
MOLLY BLOOM: --and--
ARON WOLDESLASSIE: --Aron Woldeslassie.
MOLLY BLOOM: We had engineering help from Jess Berg, Jacob Raki, and Renee Chavez with sound design by Anna Weggel. Our editors are--
SHAHLA FARZAN: --Shahla Farzan--
MOLLY BLOOM: --and--
SANDEN TOTTEN: --Sanden Totten.
MOLLY BLOOM: And we had production help from the rest of the Brains On Universe team.
ROSIE DUPONT: --Rosie duPont--
RACHEL BREES: --Rachel Brees--
ANNA GOLDFIELD: --Anna Goldfield--
NICO GONZALEZ WISLER: --Nico Gonzalez Wisler--
RUBY GUTHRIE: --Ruby Guthrie--
LAUREN HUMPERT: --Lauren Humpert--
JESS MILLER: --Jess Miller--
JOSHUA RAY: --Joshua Ray--
MARC SANCHEZ: --Marc Sanchez--
MOLLY BLOOM: --and--
CHARLOTTE TRAVER: --Charlotte Traver.
MOLLY BLOOM: Our executive producer is Beth Pearlman and the APM Studios executives in charge are Chandra Kavati and Joanne Griffith. Our announcer is Marley Feuerwerker-Otto. And we want to give a special thanks to Austin Cross, Taylor Kaufman, Phoebe Bowers, Evelyn Ann Tatum. Kathryn, is there anyone you'd like to give a shout-out to today?
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Yes, I first, of course, need to give a shout-out to Margaret, who has been one of the best friends in my life for a very, very, very long time. And I'm so grateful that she is here to do this with me today. It makes it so special for me and for my kids also who love Margaret very dearly.
I also need to shout-out to our friend Andrew, who wrote the line, "Blue Heeler heart-stealer," to my nieces, Caroline and Phoebe, who are my kids' muffin and socks, and we love them so much. I need to shout-out to Andrew's son, Henry, whose love of Bluey is deeply, deeply inspiring, to my husband, and then of course, to my kids, Claire and Alice, who, they're just-- I mean, they did such great work for this episode. They helped me so much. And their love of Bluey is why I'm here right now.
MOLLY BLOOM: That is wonderful. Margaret, any special shout-outs you want to give?
MARGARET WILLISON: I would love to give a shout-out also to Alice and Claire. I just want them to know that even though they've betrayed me on the public stage this way, they're still two of my favorite children in the entire world, and nothing will ever change that. And then I want to give a shout-out to my other best friend, Carrie, and her wonderful daughter, Eleanor.
And Eleanor, I need you to know, when you're old enough, to listen to this podcast and understand the crushing defeat we've suffered here that I fought bravely for you and I always will.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: I love you, too, Eleanor.
MARGARET WILLISON: And I love, Kathryn. Kathryn, thank you for getting me involved in this and introducing me to Smash Boom Best. It's a terrific fictional universe, and I'm delighted to have participated.
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh my gosh, thank you for being here, both of you. Emma, any special thanks you want to give?
EMMA: I would like to give a special thanks to all my besties who've helped support me, Evelyn, Will, Caviar, Chloe, the list goes on and on, Meredith, also Westlake for supporting me. And I would also like to give a mini shout-out to Kathryn, Margaret, and Molly for being able to have a great debate today.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Oh, Emma.
MARGARET WILLISON: Thanks, Emma.
MOLLY BLOOM: Before we go, let's check in and see who Milo thinks should win the Nike versus Adidas debate.
MILO: I think Nike's would win because Nike has Air Jordans, and they are really cool shoes, and it is named after a Greek goddess.
MOLLY BLOOM: If you're between the ages of 13 and 18, and you'd like to be a judge, or if you're any age, and you have an idea for a knock-down, drag-out debate, head to smashboom.org/contact and drop us a line. And make sure to subscribe to Brains On Universe on YouTube where you can watch animated versions of some of your favorite episodes. That's it for this season of Smash Boom Best. We'll be back with a brand new season, February 6.
In the meantime, you can enjoy episodes from all the shows in the Brains On Universe, including Brains On, Forever Ago, and Moment of Um. Bye-bye.
EMMA: Bye. See you everyone, later.
MARGARET WILLISON: Auf Wiedersehen.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: Bye.
[THEME MUSIC] Ooh, you're the Smash Boom Best
Ooh, put you through the test
Ooh, you're the Smash Boom Best
Ooh, better than the rest
It's the Smash Boom Best
You're the Smash Boom Best
MARGARET WILLISON: I guess raising your children and having them be such delightful humans is a lot of work, and I can't pretend it isn't. But also, it does feel a little bit like cheating.
KATHRYN VANARENDONK: No, I know, that's fair. That's fine. I accept that.
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