Today’s debate throws two timeless tales into the ring for a clash of the classics. It’s Jack and the Beanstalk vs. The Ugly Duckling! In this epic showdown, author and “Grimm, Grimmer, Grimmest” podcast host Adam Gidwitz climbs to the top for Jack and the Beanstalk, while author Soman Chainani helps The Ugly Duckling soar to new heights! Who will be crowned the Smash Boom Best? Vote below for the team YOU think won!
Also… do you have your Smarty Pass yet? Get yours today for just $5/month (or $45/year) and get bonus episodes every month, and ad-free versions of every episode of Brains On, Smash Boom Best, Moment of Um and Forever Ago. Visit www.smartypass.org to get your Smarty Pass today. As an added bonus, your Smarty Pass will grant you access to a super special debate starring Sanden and Molly!
Audio Transcript
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ANNOUNCER: From the brains behind Brains On!, it's Smash Boom Best.
HUGO: The show for people with big opinions.
MOLLY BLOOM: Hi, I'm Molly Bloom, and this is Smash Boom Best, the show where we take two things, smash them together, and ask you to decide which one is best. Today's debate throws two timeless tales into the ring for a clash of the classics. It's Jack and the Beanstalk versus The Ugly Duckling. We have author and Grimm, Grimmer, Grimmest podcast host Adam Gidwitz here to climb to the top for team Jack and the Beanstalk.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Jack and the Beanstalk climbing to the sky.
MOLLY BLOOM: And author of The School for Good and Evil series Soman Chainani is here to help team Ugly Duckling soar above the rest.
SOMAN CHAINANI: Ugly is the new rizz.
MOLLY BLOOM: [LAUGHS] And here to judge it all is Hugo from Plymouth, Minnesota. Hugo loves to have spirited discussions with his family around the dinner table, is a huge Olivia Rodrigo fan, and enjoys acting in plays and musicals. Hi, Hugo.
HUGO: Hi, there.
MOLLY BLOOM: We're so happy you're back. So, Hugo, what kind of debates have you gotten into with your family?
HUGO: A lot of times, it's just about minor disagreements that we'll have with each other, you know, like who should or should not be doing chores and stuff like that. But most of the time, it gets solved by my dad.
[LAUGHTER]
MOLLY BLOOM: So when you're debating, are there like tactics you find yourself taking to try to come out on top of those disagreements?
HUGO: Sometimes I like to just kind of push a lot of the blame onto my brother because he's the oldest.
MOLLY BLOOM: Nice.
HUGO: So he should be doing a lot more than I should, but.
MOLLY BLOOM: And what do you love about Olivia Rodrigo?
HUGO: I love her music because it's very relatable, and it's just very me. And she represents a lot of teenagers, and I just feel like very much that right now in my life, so.
MOLLY BLOOM: What's your favorite jam to sing along to?
HUGO: I love her song "Favorite Crime." That's my favorite song of hers.
MOLLY BLOOM: So good. And what is the most fun character you've played lately? What'd you say?
HUGO: I recently played a newsie in Newsies.
MOLLY BLOOM: Nice.
HUGO: And that was really, really fun to do. And it was just really cool, and there was a lot of energy and stuff like that in it. And it was really exciting to do that show.
MOLLY BLOOM: So do you have any advice for our debaters today?
HUGO: I would say definitely make me laugh. I love a good joke. I love a good story. And, yeah, just have fun.
MOLLY BLOOM: Will Hugo side with Adam or Soman? Only time will tell. But first, here are the rules of the game.
Every debate consists of four rounds-- the Declaration of Greatness, the Micro Round, the Sneak Attack, and the Final Six. After each round, our judge, Hugo, will award points to the team that impresses him the most. But he'll keep his decisions top secret until the end of the debate. Listeners, we want you to judge, too. Mark down your points as you listen. At the end of the show, head to our website, smashboom.org, and vote for whichever team you think won.
OK, Adam, Soman, and Hugo, are you ready?
HUGO: Yes.
ADAM GIDWITZ: I'm so ready.
SOMAN CHAINANI: Let's do it.
MOLLY BLOOM: Then it's time for the--
ANNOUNCER: Declaration of Greatness.
MOLLY BLOOM: In this round, our debaters will present a well-crafted, immersive argument in favor of their side. Then they'll each have 30 seconds to rebut their opponent's statements. We flipped a coin, and, Adam, you're up first. Tell us what makes Jack and the Beanstalk such a towering tale.
ADAM GIDWITZ: You probably remember the story of Jack and the Beanstalk, right? Jack sells his cow for beans. His mom throws them out the window. A giant beanstalk rose to the sky. Jack climbs up three times. But trust me, you probably always heard the cute, boring retellings of the story, you know, the ones meant for little kids. The real Jack and the Beanstalk is actually a pulse-pounding, shock-inducing thrill fest.
Take the giant's famous line--
GIANT: Fee-fi-fo-fum, I smell the blood of an Englishman.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Do you remember the rest of it?
GIANT: Be he alive or be he dead, I'll grind his bones to make my bread.
ADAM GIDWITZ: What? The giant is going to take Jack's bones out of his body and then grind them into flour to make bread? Bone flour bread? And the giant isn't exaggerating either, because later, his wife makes an off-hand comment about how he likes eating little boys on toast, which is disgusting and awesome.
So the story is freaky. Also, it is legit funny. So after the giant does his thing--
GIANT: Fee-fi-fo-fum, I smell the blood of an Englishman.
ADAM GIDWITZ: --his wife says--
GIANT'S WIFE: There you go again with your fee-fi-fo-fum. Why, of course, it's the boy you caught last night that I've just broiled for your breakfast. How careless you are not to know the difference between live little boys and dead little boys.
ADAM GIDWITZ: But it's not just freaky and funny. If you tell it right, it's a straight-up thrill fest. Allow me. [CLEARS THROAT] On Jack's third trip up the beanstalk, the giant is certain that he smells the boy somewhere. He starts searching all over the house, but he didn't think to look in the bathtub. So Jack is able to sneak away with the golden harp he'd taken.
GOLDEN HARP: Help, help! He's stealing me.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Jack had no idea that this harp could talk. The giant comes charging out of the house after Jack, and Jack has to weave and dodge until he gets to the beanstalk. Then he starts climbing down, and at first, the giant is too scared to go after him because the beanstalk doesn't look sturdy. But then--
GOLDEN HARP: Help, help, Master! Come get me.
ADAM GIDWITZ: --the giant swings himself down onto the beanstalk, and it shakes so badly Jack nearly falls off. And now the giant is coming after him, faster and faster, closer and closer, until-- I'm not going to tell you anymore. But that's one heck of a cliffhanger. Or is it a stalk hanger?
Aside from being a better story, Jack and the Beanstalk also has a better life lesson. Hang with me because we're about to get personal. When I was in middle school, I was a fool. I was always goofing off in class, trying to impress the cool kids. It never worked. Often, it ended with me in the principal's office. Once it ended up with the cool kids getting the whole class to point at me and chant.
SCHOOLCHILDREN: Poser! Poser! Poser!
ADAM GIDWITZ: Which was '90s slang that meant I was a follower, that I didn't know who I was. That moment sent me on a journey. I fell in with some real troublemakers, and I got in more trouble. And then I decided to have no friends at all, and so I was alone. Finally, in ninth grade, I met two guys who weren't cool and who weren't troublemakers. They were smart and nice, and we became friends. Jesse and Ryan are still two of my best friends to this day. Jesse and I even created the book series The Unicorn Rescue Society together.
So you might think that fairy tales are supposed to have a moral, to teach you a lesson, like--
NARRATOR: Don't judge a book by its cover.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Or--
NARRATOR: Don't tell wolves where your grandma lives.
ADAM GIDWITZ: But moral lessons like that don't really help you through tough times. No one wants to be preached at. The best fairy tales like Jack and the Beanstalk aren't moral tales. They are tales that give you strength. Jack wasn't perfect. None of us are. He made terrible decisions, like I did. He traded his cow for beans, and he let his mother down. But that wasn't the end of his story. It was the beginning.
It led to an incredible adventure, full of wonder and laughter and mortal terror. And he came out the other side braver and stronger and wiser. The best fairy tales, like Jack and the Beanstalk, give us faith that we can grow up to be better than we are and that growing up is going to be one heck of an adventure.
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh, Adam, making me have some fee-fi-fo feelings. Oh my goodness. Hugo, what stood out to you about Adam's Declaration of Greatness?
HUGO: I loved the point that he made about it being a thrill fest, because I am definitely an avid horror movie fan, so that definitely caught my attention. And I loved how exciting and high stakes it was. But then it wrapped up with a nice message about the fact that you can make mistakes and it's still OK.
MOLLY BLOOM: Very good. OK, Soman, it is time for your rebuttal. Tell us why Jack and the Beanstalk just can't walk the walk. You've got 30 seconds, and your time starts now.
SOMAN CHAINANI: First of all, of this is irrelevant because Adam can't even name an Olivia Rodrigo song, let alone been to her concert three times like I have.
ADAM GIDWITZ: How did you know that?
[LAUGHTER]
SOMAN CHAINANI: Second of all, I mean, it's nice to hear his sad self-esteem story. But the thing about Jack is when Jack sold the cow that was responsible for saving his starving family for magic beans, that's basically the end of the story. His family has now died. This is encouraging children to essentially do the absolute max--
MOLLY BLOOM: And time.
[LAUGHTER]
SOMAN CHAINANI: Yeah, he made a foolish mistake, absolutely. But then what happened after that? He had an adventure. And isn't really that the point of life?
MOLLY BLOOM: [LAUGHS] Well, it's up for our judge, Hugo, to decide. So let's hear now from Soman. Tell us why The Ugly Duckling is a triumph against all odds.
SOMAN CHAINANI: Let's imagine a scenario.
[BELL RINGS]
You left your fairy tale book report until the last minute, and you have 10 minutes at study hall to whip something up. You fire up old faithful, aka Wikipedia, to skim the readings. First, there's Jack and the Beanstalk, which has a summary the size of Spain and a maze of 14 other subcategories you're afraid to expand. Second, there's The Ugly Duckling with a summary that's three paragraphs, so short, crisp, and clean it feels like a Japanese zen garden-- beginning, middle, end. Which fairy tale do you pick?
[BELL RINGS]
To refresh your memory, The Ugly Duckling goes like this-- a bunch of duck eggs hatch, and the cute little ducklings go, quack, quack, quack. Mother duck is super happy with her eggs, when, crack, the last one explodes and out comes this fluffy, ragged mess, The Ugly Duckling.
UGLY DUCKLING: Hey, everyone. Sorry I'm late.
SOMAN CHAINANI: The Ugly Duckling does his best to fit in, but every duck in the duck yard doesn't want him in their lunch posse. Relatable.
UGLY DUCKLING: Uh, hi, guys. Want to quack together? Uh.
DUCKLING: Go away. We're into waddling. We only care about waddling.
SOMAN CHAINANI: And so our hero, Ugo Ducko, grows up tragically alone and misunderstood, until one day after waking up from a long winter, he sees in the pond's reflection that he's grown into a majestic swan. He was never a duck. He was meant for bigger, more beautiful things. He joins his fellow swans, flying into the sunset to live happily ever after.
Short and sweet, unlike Jack and the Beanstalk, which drags on with all its beanstalk climbing, giant chasing, golden gooses, and unnecessary subplots. The ugly duck spike from zero to hero happens so fast you could drop it on TikTok. And if TikTok has taught us anything, it's that simple works. That's not the only reason Ugo Ducko beats Jack, though. The story behind The Ugly Duckling is way cooler, too, and it involves secret royal blood.
Hans Christian Andersen, the author of duckling, was born in Denmark in 1805. He grew up feeling ugly and awkward, like the duckling in this story. With distinct facial features, a lone spirit, and a love of stories, he got bullied and teased by the other kids.
HANS CHRISTIAN ANDERSEN: Uh, hi, guys. You want to hear a story I just wrote?
BOY: Urgh, go away. We're playing marbles. We only care about marbles.
SOMAN CHAINANI: The joke, though, was on the bullies, because, like The Ugly Duckling, many historians think Hans had a secret identity. There's evidence that suggests he was actually a secret son of Denmark's future king, Christian VIII. And like the duckling, Hans would one day soar above his haters. He went on to write some of the most famous fairy tales ever, like The Ugly Duckling, The Little Mermaid, and The Snow Queen, which the movie Frozen is based on. Basically, he was the Taylor Swift of fairy tales, turning his pain into power and also earning millions of dollars for Disney along the way.
And speaking of Disney, Ugly Duckling is number one for another reason-- clear moral lessons. Nowadays, we need guidance more than ever, and the ugly duckling delivers. It tells us good things take time, that we all have beauty inside us, and you should not judge a book by its cover. These are all timeless, universal lessons that form the foundations of human society. Jack, meanwhile, teaches you it's fun and OK to disobey your parents and break into people's homes and steal their stuff, but I digress, because you have a book report due.
[BELL RINGS]
Quick, everyone is walking into class. What's your report going to be on? The short and sweet masterpiece by the guy who wrote Frozen, or some morally dubious yawningly long tale about a kid who puts his faith in some magic beans? If you want that, hey, I can tell you, kid, those beans are not the answer.
MOLLY BLOOM: [CHUCKLES] A beautiful argument there for The Ugly Duckling. Hugo, what stood out to you about Soman's Declaration of Greatness?
HUGO: Well, I obviously love the sentiment that going from being alone to kind of growing into your inner beauty is very nice. And I also thought it was very interesting that one of the main morals of the story is that good things take time, but also that fairy tales should be kept short.
MOLLY BLOOM: Mhm. [CHUCKLES] Very good point. All right, Adam, it is time for your rebuttal. Tell us why The Ugly Duckling leaves you unimpressed. You have 30 seconds, and your time starts now.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Well, I really agree with Hugo. It would be really nice if the moral of the story was about inner beauty. Unfortunately, that isn't the moral of the story. The moral of the story is you're ugly now, but don't worry, you'll be beautiful later. But what if you aren't? Or even, who cares about what you look like? What about what's inside of you that matters? Are you smart? Are you interesting? Are you kind? And all of this is kind of proven by the fact that when Hans Christian Andersen did grow up, he was actually one of the most desperate followers in Denmark.
MOLLY BLOOM: And time. Ooh, cliffhanger there.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Yeah, I know. I wish I had a clock in front of me so I knew my 30 seconds. I would have stopped.
SOMAN CHAINANI: I mean, I think the thing that he's missing is what it's like to be a teenage boy nowadays, like Hugo, where you are suffering in silence for a very long time, waiting for your swan years. And the truth is, if they don't come quickly, it's OK, you can find a dermatologist just in time to become a swan.
[LAUGHTER]
ADAM GIDWITZ: I just have to react and say that Soman's obvious pandering to the teenage audience, between the Taylor Swift references and TikTok and pointing out that I've never heard an Olivia Rodrigo song--
SOMAN CHAINANI: You have not. You've heard nothing.
ADAM GIDWITZ: --is really the lowest common denominator. Soman, you can do better.
HUGO: I just wanted to say, who says I'm not in my swan years yet?
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Oh, there you go. That's right, Soman. Underestimating Hugo here.
SOMAN CHAINANI: Oh, boy.
MOLLY BLOOM: All right, Hugo, the swan, it is time to abort some points for this round. Please give one point to the Declaration of Greatness that you liked best and one point to the rebuttal that won you over. You get to decide what makes a winning argument. Did one team's jokes make you giggle? Was another team's logic impeccable? Award your points, but don't tell us who they're going to. Have you made your decision?
HUGO: Yes.
MOLLY BLOOM: Wonderful. Soman and Adam, how are you two feeling so far?
SOMAN CHAINANI: This is playing out exactly like I imagined. Adam is trying to do the assignment, and I'm doing everything to cheat and undercut.
MOLLY BLOOM: [LAUGHS]
ADAM GIDWITZ: I knew it was going to happen like this. I knew you were going to do this to me.
[LAUGHTER]
MOLLY BLOOM: Well, we're going to have a quick break. Water your magic beans and smooth your feathers.
HUGO: And we'll be right back with more Smash Boom Best.
ANNOUNCER: You're listening to State of Debate, home to raging rhetoric and awe-inspiring argumentation.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Hi, Statie Debaties. I'm Taylor Lincoln, and I'm here with the Bert to my Ernie, Todd Douglas.
TODD DOUGLAS: What can I say? I love vertical stripes and being a realist. I also love spotting logical fallacies.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: A logical fallacy is a debate doozy that makes your argument weaker. And we just saw someone use the middle ground fallacy.
TODD DOUGLAS: That's when someone thinks that the middle ground between two extremes must be the truth.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Check it out.
[MOVIE PROJECTOR RUNNING]
[DOG BARKING]
SAM: Hey, Carrie, do you want a chocolate peanut butter cup?
CARRIE: Ooh, yeah. Those are my favorite. Thanks, Sam.
[DOG BARKING]
SAM: Sounds like Mr. Fiddlesticks wants one, too. Can he have one?
CARRIE: Oh, that's sweet of you, but it's not a good idea. Chocolate isn't good for dogs because it can make them sick. No chocolate for you, Mr. Fiddlesticks.
SAM: That's silly. I say dogs love chocolate. It makes them happy, so they should get a lot of it. Here you go, little buddy.
CARRIE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. No, wait! Stop! Sam, you're just wrong. There are lots of veterinarians who will tell you chocolate is bad for dogs. They should never have any, full stop.
SAM: You say dogs can't have any chocolate. I say they should have a lot. How about we meet in the middle and agree dogs can have a little chocolate? That seems reasonable, right?
CARRIE: No way!
[BUZZ]
TODD DOUGLAS: Oh, no, no, no, that is a debate flopperino.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Compromises are good when it comes to deciding what to eat for a snack.
TODD DOUGLAS: Or which movie you should watch with your friends.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Right. But you should never compromise on the facts, like the fact that chocolate is bad for dogs, and there's no way around or in between that.
TODD DOUGLAS: And that's that on that, debate-arinos.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Catch you next time on--
TODD AND TAYLOR: State of Debate.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
ANNOUNCER: Brains On Universe is a family of podcasts for kids and their adults. Since you're a fan of Smash Boom Best, we know you'll love the other shows in our universe. Come on, let's explore.
[ROCKET LAUNCHING]
COMPUTER: Here we are in Brains On Universe, home to my favorite podcasts. Brains On! Smash Boom Best. Forever Ago. [GASPS] I found one.
[BEEPING]
MAN: Ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba, Brains On!
COMPUTER: Brains On!, a science podcast for kids and families.
[BEEPING]
MOLLY BLOOM: Let's start with our pal, the sun.
SUN: Did somebody call their favorite star? It's me, the sun. The sun is made up of very, very hot elect--
COMPUTER: [GASPS] Oh, what a great show.
[BEEPING]
Need more Brains On! now!
[EXPLOSION]
ANNOUNCER: Listen to Brains On! wherever you get your podcasts.
MAN: Smash Boom Best.
MOLLY BLOOM: You're listening to Smash Boom Best. I'm your host, Molly Bloom,
HUGO: And I'm your judge, Hugo.
MOLLY BLOOM: And we love getting debate suggestions from our listeners. Take a listen to this delicious debate idea from Sebastian.
SEBASTIAN: Hi, my name is Sebastian, and I'm from Manchester, Vermont. My debate is sushi versus ramen.
HUGO: Don't make me choose.
MOLLY BLOOM: We'll check back in at the end of this episode to see which side Sebastian thinks should win.
HUGO: And now it's back to our debate-- Jack and the Beanstalk versus The Ugly Duckling.
MOLLY BLOOM: That's right. And it's time for round two, the Micro Round. For the Micro Round challenge, each team has prepared a creative response to a prompt they received in advance. For Adam and Soman, the prompt was cribs, where each debater has to give us a tour of their character's home. Adam went first last time. So, Soman, you're up. Give us a tour inspired by The Ugly Duckling.
[KNOCK ON DOOR]
UGLY DUCKLING: Good morning. Let me start by saying it's an honor to finally be on the show. I'm the swan, formerly known as The Ugly Duckling. I'm known for my inner beauty, of course, but ever since I moved to Beverly Hills, I've been trying to make the rest of my life as beautiful as my famously pure soul, starting with my home.
Welcome to Villa Swan. We wanted to pay homage to my old, quaint little pond. We dug it up and put it into the foyer of my new chateau, a lovely reminder of how small my life used to be. No, if you can't swim, feel free to ride on one of our rubber duck pool floats. They're all the rage at my A-list parties.
[SQUEAKING]
Notice the gallery on your left, giant before and after portraits of me pre-swan and post-swan to remind everyone who visits that they, too, can go from a 0 to a 10, or at least a two to a three. Off the record, you'd be shocked how some people show up looking. You'd think they'd never looked in a mirror, or at least never saw their reflection in a crystal clear pool of water. Speaking of water, let's take the waterslide down to the gym.
[WATER SPLASHING]
Hope I didn't get your camera wet.
[PHONE RINGING]
Yes. Repossessed? They can't evict me. I'm like a duck version of Chappell Roan. Just ask the camera crew filming me right now. They're on their way? With a demolition crew? Oh, dear, I totally forgot. I'm late for a facial. Gotta keep my feathers smooth.
MOLLY BLOOM: [CHUCKLES] Was not expecting that twist at the end. Good storytelling. All right, Adam, it is your turn. Show us around a home inspired by Jack and the Beanstalk.
FAIRY GODMOTHER: Welcome to this edition of Fairy Tale Cribs, where we see the homes of the famous fairy tale characters. I'm your host, the fairy godmother, and we're here today with Jack from the beloved tale Jack and the Beanstalk. Jack, how are you today?
JACK: Uh, could you keep your voice down a little?
FAIRY GODMOTHER: Honey, how about you speak up a little? I think everyone wants to hear from you. Tell us about your beautiful and, well, fairly large home.
JACK: It's not my home. That's why we have to whisper.
FAIRY GODMOTHER: Um, whose home is it?
JACK: It belongs to that giant over there eating three whole oxen for breakfast, also to his wife. She's OK.
FAIRY GODMOTHER: He's eating three oxen? Like whole cows for breakfast?
JACK: Yeah, I think his wife fried them up like bacon. You should see the size of his fork. Of course, he's not using his fork. His table manners are pretty disgusting.
FAIRY GODMOTHER: Wait, but he can't see you?
JACK: No, I'm hiding in the bathtub.
FAIRY GODMOTHER: And are you holding a goose?
[GOOSE HONKS]
JACK: Yeah, it lays golden eggs. Cool, right?
GIANT: Fee-fi-fo-fum, I smell the blood of an Englishman.
JACK: Oh, crud. Not again.
FAIRY GODMOTHER: Are you OK, Jack?
JACK: Not really. Gotta go.
GIANT: [GROANING]
[CRASHING]
MOLLY BLOOM: A sneaky home tour. I love it. All right, Hugo, what did you like about Adam and Soman's Micro Rounds?
HUGO: Well, I really liked that The Ugly Duckling is on to bigger, better things, and he's kind of moving up in the world. But he's still remembering his roots and that he was once ugly. And I thought it was funny that Jack has kind of turned into a bit of a freeloader, kind of house squatting, if you will. But he's making it work. He's doing his best.
MOLLY BLOOM: Absolutely. Well, Hugo, it is time to award a point for this Micro Round. The criteria are totally subjective and totally up to you. Have you made your decision?
HUGO: Yes. Then it's time for our third round, the super stealthy--
MAN: Ha-ha, hoo-ha.
MOLLY BLOOM: --Sneak Attack. This is our improvised round where debaters have to respond to a challenge on the spot. Today's Sneak Attack is called Too Nice to Handle. It's a good old-fashioned compliment-off. Debaters get the chance to give three compliments to the other side, the debater or the topic. Who has the sweeter words, the kookiest compliments, the awesomest accolades? We're going to start with Adam. Let's hear your first compliment for The Ugly Duckling.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Well, it's really a compliment for Soman. Soman is an incredible author of books that take the dark side of fairy tales. And he has really shown us the dark side of The Ugly Duckling, how The Ugly Duckling really grew up to be a totally vain swan who's obsessed with his own appearance. So I was really impressed with that.
MOLLY BLOOM: All right, Soman, it is your turn. Let's hear your first compliment for Jack and the Beanstalk.
SOMAN CHAINANI: I like how Adam gravitates towards these imaginary creatures, like unicorns and giants, like you're supposed to leave the absolutely very real, mundane aspects of your normal life to go chasing these fantastic creatures that don't exist in the hopes that maybe you will find an adventure beyond the kind of interminable, guaranteed boredom of your normal existence, which I think is really aspirational, actually.
MOLLY BLOOM: All right, Adam, it is your turn.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Well, I'd also like to give a compliment to Hans Christian Andersen, who was, in his adulthood, a desperate follower, so desperate to have the approval of the members of the court in Denmark and to have people like him and compliment him. And it's amazing that he wrote a story that has had such a great effect on the world, has such a wonderful lesson that he himself never learned.
MOLLY BLOOM: Mhm. All right, Soman, it is your turn. Let's hear your next compliment.
SOMAN CHAINANI: I thought it was really, really clever that he ignored the character of the mother altogether, because she's truly the hero of this story if you think about it. She's just trying to save her family and get some money, and she just sends her son with a very simple task. And then he comes home with beans. She shows quite an amazing amount of restraint. So to ignore her and focus on Jack, on the hero is a good way of compensating for the story's shortcomings.
[LAUGHTER]
MOLLY BLOOM: Adam, it is time for your final compliment.
ADAM GIDWITZ: I'm just impressed about how Soman knows so many teen keywords. He just has every last little teen checklist keyword. Have you hit them all so far on your checklist, or are there more to go?
MOLLY BLOOM: He's checking.
SOMAN CHAINANI: No. No, I have more coming in a second.
MOLLY BLOOM: All right, Soman, let's hear your final compliment.
SOMAN CHAINANI: I was very moved by Adam's story about how he found his friends and kind of made the best of his life. The problem is, though, it doesn't actually represent what Jack was because Jack never had any friends. So I like that Adam took Jack's story and tried to create a sequel where he finds friends.
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh, excellent work both of you. These two real-life friends clearly love each other very deeply, deep down in the bottom of their hearts. OK, Hugo, it is time to award a point to the side that impressed you the most. Have you made up your mind?
HUGO: Yes.
MOLLY BLOOM: Perfect. Then it's time for our final round, the Final Six. In this round, each team will have just six words to sum up the glory of their side. OK, Soman, let's hear your six words for why The Ugly Duckling should be crowned the ultimate winner.
SOMAN CHAINANI: Iconic, bop, short as a haiku.
MOLLY BLOOM: Mhm, lovely. All right, Adam, it is your turn. Give us six words on why Jack should lead the pack.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Jack is me. Jack is you.
MOLLY BLOOM: Mhm, wonderful. Those were both thinkers.
HUGO: Yeah.
MOLLY BLOOM: I enjoyed them both. All right, Hugo, only one of them, though, can get the final point for this round. Have you made your decision?
HUGO: Yes.
MOLLY BLOOM: All right, tally up those points. Are you ready to crown one team the Smash Boom Best?
HUGO: Yes.
MOLLY BLOOM: Drum roll, please. And the winner is--
HUGO: Jack and the Beanstalk.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Wow. Oh, thank you, Hugo, I am genuinely shocked at that. It's true and legit a surprise in my voice.
SOMAN CHAINANI: This track.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Soman, I thought you did an amazing job, and I wish we could talk about fairy tales all day long. I love talking to you about them.
SOMAN CHAINANI: I'm usually the villain in the story, so I'm actually quite happy with the loss.
[LAUGHTER]
ADAM GIDWITZ: But you love that role. You relish it.
SOMAN CHAINANI: I love it. Love it.
MOLLY BLOOM: Hugo, what was your favorite part of the debate?
HUGO: Oh, gosh. I really liked both of the Micro Rounds. I loved the house tours. I thought they were very funny. And I don't know, I thought that both the kind of poetic endings were very good as well. And I'm very interested at the idea of Jack and the Beanstalk 2, so.
MOLLY BLOOM: Yes, excellent.
ADAM GIDWITZ: For realsies, I think Soman thinks really deeply about fairy tales, and he hides it in this really funny snark. And he explores the dark side of fairy tales, which I also love. But what he does is he goes into the dark side. He allows you to play in it, feel a little naughty, but then actually find something beautiful and meaningful inside of them. So I love Soman very much.
SOMAN CHAINANI: Adam is just the most brilliant human. And so you can't compete with him on substance. So I came in very much ready to completely go after everything but substance. There would be enough. And the fact that it wasn't is a triumph for good over evil. So well done, Hugo. I would have been quite disturbed if it had gone the other way.
[LAUGHTER]
MOLLY BLOOM: Well, you're two friends who complement each other very well in all the senses of the word.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Well, that's it for today's debate battle. Hugo crowned Jack and the Beanstalk the Smash Boom Best. But what about you?
HUGO: Head to smashboom.org and vote to tell us who you think won.
MOLLY BLOOM: Smash Boom Best is brought to you by Brains On! and APM Studios. It's produced by me, Molly Bloom--
ANNA WEGGEL: Anna Weggel.
MOLLY BLOOM: --and--
ARON WOLDESLASSIE: Aron Woldeslassie.
MOLLY BLOOM: We had engineering help from Josh Savageau, Brian Hartman, and Gary O'Keefe with sound design by Anna Weggel. Our editors are--
SHAHLA FARZAN: Shahla Farzan.
MOLLY BLOOM: --and--
SANDEN TOTTEN: Sanden Totten.
MOLLY BLOOM: And we had production help from the rest of the Brains On Universe team.
ROSIE DUPONT: Rosie duPont.
RACHEL BREES: Rachel Brees.
ANNA GOLDFIELD: Anna Goldfield.
NICO GONZALEZ WISLER: Nico Gonzalez Wisler.
RUBY GUTHRIE: Ruby Guthrie.
LAUREN HUMPERT: Lauren Humpert.
JESS MILLER: Jess Miller.
JOSHUA RAY: Joshua Ray.
MARC SANCHEZ: Marc Sanchez.
MOLLY BLOOM: And--
CHARLOTTE TRAVER: Charlotte Traver.
MOLLY BLOOM: Our executive producer is Beth Pearlman, and the APM Studios executives in charge are Chandra Kavati and Joanne Griffith. Our announcer is Marley Feuerwerker-Otto. And we want to give a special thanks to Austin Cross and Taylor Kaufman. Adam, is there anyone you'd like to give a shout-out to today?
ADAM GIDWITZ: Hugo, Soman, and fairy tales.
MOLLY BLOOM: Wonderful. And how about you, Soman? Any special shout-outs?
SOMAN CHAINANI: Super excited to be here with Adam, my friend, and to have Hugo judging us and to [? June ?] [? Sequoia, ?] who was a big help on teaching me everything I need to know about The Ugly Duckling and Hans Christian Andersen.
MOLLY BLOOM: Awesome. And, Hugo, how about you? Any special thanks or shout-outs?
HUGO: Olivia Rodrigo and Chappell Roan.
MOLLY BLOOM: [LAUGHS] Before we go, let's check in and see who Sebastian thinks should win the sushi versus ramen debate.
SEBASTIAN: I think sushi would win because the combination of fish, veggies, fries, and seaweed is very good.
MOLLY BLOOM: If you're between the ages of 13 and 18 and you'd like to be a judge, or if you're any age and you have an idea for a knock-down, drag-out debate, head to. smashboom.org/contact and drop us a line. Make sure to subscribe to Brains On Universe on YouTube, where you can watch animated versions of some of your favorite episodes. We'll be back with a new Smash Boom Best debate battle next week-- Mars versus Saturn. Bye-bye.
SOMAN CHAINANI: See Ya.
HUGO: Bye.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Goodbye.
[MUSIC PLAYING] Ooh, you're the Smash Boom Best
Ooh, put you through the test
Ooh, you're the Smash Boom Best
Ooh, better than the rest
It's Smash Boom Best
It's Smash Boom Best
ADAM GIDWITZ: You all made me very nervous in the run-up to this with all you guys-- so much preparation and research and fact-checking. I was like, oh, my goodness.
MOLLY BLOOM: [LAUGHS]
HUGO: The show for people with big opinions.
MOLLY BLOOM: Hi, I'm Molly Bloom, and this is Smash Boom Best, the show where we take two things, smash them together, and ask you to decide which one is best. Today's debate throws two timeless tales into the ring for a clash of the classics. It's Jack and the Beanstalk versus The Ugly Duckling. We have author and Grimm, Grimmer, Grimmest podcast host Adam Gidwitz here to climb to the top for team Jack and the Beanstalk.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Jack and the Beanstalk climbing to the sky.
MOLLY BLOOM: And author of The School for Good and Evil series Soman Chainani is here to help team Ugly Duckling soar above the rest.
SOMAN CHAINANI: Ugly is the new rizz.
MOLLY BLOOM: [LAUGHS] And here to judge it all is Hugo from Plymouth, Minnesota. Hugo loves to have spirited discussions with his family around the dinner table, is a huge Olivia Rodrigo fan, and enjoys acting in plays and musicals. Hi, Hugo.
HUGO: Hi, there.
MOLLY BLOOM: We're so happy you're back. So, Hugo, what kind of debates have you gotten into with your family?
HUGO: A lot of times, it's just about minor disagreements that we'll have with each other, you know, like who should or should not be doing chores and stuff like that. But most of the time, it gets solved by my dad.
[LAUGHTER]
MOLLY BLOOM: So when you're debating, are there like tactics you find yourself taking to try to come out on top of those disagreements?
HUGO: Sometimes I like to just kind of push a lot of the blame onto my brother because he's the oldest.
MOLLY BLOOM: Nice.
HUGO: So he should be doing a lot more than I should, but.
MOLLY BLOOM: And what do you love about Olivia Rodrigo?
HUGO: I love her music because it's very relatable, and it's just very me. And she represents a lot of teenagers, and I just feel like very much that right now in my life, so.
MOLLY BLOOM: What's your favorite jam to sing along to?
HUGO: I love her song "Favorite Crime." That's my favorite song of hers.
MOLLY BLOOM: So good. And what is the most fun character you've played lately? What'd you say?
HUGO: I recently played a newsie in Newsies.
MOLLY BLOOM: Nice.
HUGO: And that was really, really fun to do. And it was just really cool, and there was a lot of energy and stuff like that in it. And it was really exciting to do that show.
MOLLY BLOOM: So do you have any advice for our debaters today?
HUGO: I would say definitely make me laugh. I love a good joke. I love a good story. And, yeah, just have fun.
MOLLY BLOOM: Will Hugo side with Adam or Soman? Only time will tell. But first, here are the rules of the game.
Every debate consists of four rounds-- the Declaration of Greatness, the Micro Round, the Sneak Attack, and the Final Six. After each round, our judge, Hugo, will award points to the team that impresses him the most. But he'll keep his decisions top secret until the end of the debate. Listeners, we want you to judge, too. Mark down your points as you listen. At the end of the show, head to our website, smashboom.org, and vote for whichever team you think won.
OK, Adam, Soman, and Hugo, are you ready?
HUGO: Yes.
ADAM GIDWITZ: I'm so ready.
SOMAN CHAINANI: Let's do it.
MOLLY BLOOM: Then it's time for the--
ANNOUNCER: Declaration of Greatness.
MOLLY BLOOM: In this round, our debaters will present a well-crafted, immersive argument in favor of their side. Then they'll each have 30 seconds to rebut their opponent's statements. We flipped a coin, and, Adam, you're up first. Tell us what makes Jack and the Beanstalk such a towering tale.
ADAM GIDWITZ: You probably remember the story of Jack and the Beanstalk, right? Jack sells his cow for beans. His mom throws them out the window. A giant beanstalk rose to the sky. Jack climbs up three times. But trust me, you probably always heard the cute, boring retellings of the story, you know, the ones meant for little kids. The real Jack and the Beanstalk is actually a pulse-pounding, shock-inducing thrill fest.
Take the giant's famous line--
GIANT: Fee-fi-fo-fum, I smell the blood of an Englishman.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Do you remember the rest of it?
GIANT: Be he alive or be he dead, I'll grind his bones to make my bread.
ADAM GIDWITZ: What? The giant is going to take Jack's bones out of his body and then grind them into flour to make bread? Bone flour bread? And the giant isn't exaggerating either, because later, his wife makes an off-hand comment about how he likes eating little boys on toast, which is disgusting and awesome.
So the story is freaky. Also, it is legit funny. So after the giant does his thing--
GIANT: Fee-fi-fo-fum, I smell the blood of an Englishman.
ADAM GIDWITZ: --his wife says--
GIANT'S WIFE: There you go again with your fee-fi-fo-fum. Why, of course, it's the boy you caught last night that I've just broiled for your breakfast. How careless you are not to know the difference between live little boys and dead little boys.
ADAM GIDWITZ: But it's not just freaky and funny. If you tell it right, it's a straight-up thrill fest. Allow me. [CLEARS THROAT] On Jack's third trip up the beanstalk, the giant is certain that he smells the boy somewhere. He starts searching all over the house, but he didn't think to look in the bathtub. So Jack is able to sneak away with the golden harp he'd taken.
GOLDEN HARP: Help, help! He's stealing me.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Jack had no idea that this harp could talk. The giant comes charging out of the house after Jack, and Jack has to weave and dodge until he gets to the beanstalk. Then he starts climbing down, and at first, the giant is too scared to go after him because the beanstalk doesn't look sturdy. But then--
GOLDEN HARP: Help, help, Master! Come get me.
ADAM GIDWITZ: --the giant swings himself down onto the beanstalk, and it shakes so badly Jack nearly falls off. And now the giant is coming after him, faster and faster, closer and closer, until-- I'm not going to tell you anymore. But that's one heck of a cliffhanger. Or is it a stalk hanger?
Aside from being a better story, Jack and the Beanstalk also has a better life lesson. Hang with me because we're about to get personal. When I was in middle school, I was a fool. I was always goofing off in class, trying to impress the cool kids. It never worked. Often, it ended with me in the principal's office. Once it ended up with the cool kids getting the whole class to point at me and chant.
SCHOOLCHILDREN: Poser! Poser! Poser!
ADAM GIDWITZ: Which was '90s slang that meant I was a follower, that I didn't know who I was. That moment sent me on a journey. I fell in with some real troublemakers, and I got in more trouble. And then I decided to have no friends at all, and so I was alone. Finally, in ninth grade, I met two guys who weren't cool and who weren't troublemakers. They were smart and nice, and we became friends. Jesse and Ryan are still two of my best friends to this day. Jesse and I even created the book series The Unicorn Rescue Society together.
So you might think that fairy tales are supposed to have a moral, to teach you a lesson, like--
NARRATOR: Don't judge a book by its cover.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Or--
NARRATOR: Don't tell wolves where your grandma lives.
ADAM GIDWITZ: But moral lessons like that don't really help you through tough times. No one wants to be preached at. The best fairy tales like Jack and the Beanstalk aren't moral tales. They are tales that give you strength. Jack wasn't perfect. None of us are. He made terrible decisions, like I did. He traded his cow for beans, and he let his mother down. But that wasn't the end of his story. It was the beginning.
It led to an incredible adventure, full of wonder and laughter and mortal terror. And he came out the other side braver and stronger and wiser. The best fairy tales, like Jack and the Beanstalk, give us faith that we can grow up to be better than we are and that growing up is going to be one heck of an adventure.
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh, Adam, making me have some fee-fi-fo feelings. Oh my goodness. Hugo, what stood out to you about Adam's Declaration of Greatness?
HUGO: I loved the point that he made about it being a thrill fest, because I am definitely an avid horror movie fan, so that definitely caught my attention. And I loved how exciting and high stakes it was. But then it wrapped up with a nice message about the fact that you can make mistakes and it's still OK.
MOLLY BLOOM: Very good. OK, Soman, it is time for your rebuttal. Tell us why Jack and the Beanstalk just can't walk the walk. You've got 30 seconds, and your time starts now.
SOMAN CHAINANI: First of all, of this is irrelevant because Adam can't even name an Olivia Rodrigo song, let alone been to her concert three times like I have.
ADAM GIDWITZ: How did you know that?
[LAUGHTER]
SOMAN CHAINANI: Second of all, I mean, it's nice to hear his sad self-esteem story. But the thing about Jack is when Jack sold the cow that was responsible for saving his starving family for magic beans, that's basically the end of the story. His family has now died. This is encouraging children to essentially do the absolute max--
MOLLY BLOOM: And time.
[LAUGHTER]
SOMAN CHAINANI: Yeah, he made a foolish mistake, absolutely. But then what happened after that? He had an adventure. And isn't really that the point of life?
MOLLY BLOOM: [LAUGHS] Well, it's up for our judge, Hugo, to decide. So let's hear now from Soman. Tell us why The Ugly Duckling is a triumph against all odds.
SOMAN CHAINANI: Let's imagine a scenario.
[BELL RINGS]
You left your fairy tale book report until the last minute, and you have 10 minutes at study hall to whip something up. You fire up old faithful, aka Wikipedia, to skim the readings. First, there's Jack and the Beanstalk, which has a summary the size of Spain and a maze of 14 other subcategories you're afraid to expand. Second, there's The Ugly Duckling with a summary that's three paragraphs, so short, crisp, and clean it feels like a Japanese zen garden-- beginning, middle, end. Which fairy tale do you pick?
[BELL RINGS]
To refresh your memory, The Ugly Duckling goes like this-- a bunch of duck eggs hatch, and the cute little ducklings go, quack, quack, quack. Mother duck is super happy with her eggs, when, crack, the last one explodes and out comes this fluffy, ragged mess, The Ugly Duckling.
UGLY DUCKLING: Hey, everyone. Sorry I'm late.
SOMAN CHAINANI: The Ugly Duckling does his best to fit in, but every duck in the duck yard doesn't want him in their lunch posse. Relatable.
UGLY DUCKLING: Uh, hi, guys. Want to quack together? Uh.
DUCKLING: Go away. We're into waddling. We only care about waddling.
SOMAN CHAINANI: And so our hero, Ugo Ducko, grows up tragically alone and misunderstood, until one day after waking up from a long winter, he sees in the pond's reflection that he's grown into a majestic swan. He was never a duck. He was meant for bigger, more beautiful things. He joins his fellow swans, flying into the sunset to live happily ever after.
Short and sweet, unlike Jack and the Beanstalk, which drags on with all its beanstalk climbing, giant chasing, golden gooses, and unnecessary subplots. The ugly duck spike from zero to hero happens so fast you could drop it on TikTok. And if TikTok has taught us anything, it's that simple works. That's not the only reason Ugo Ducko beats Jack, though. The story behind The Ugly Duckling is way cooler, too, and it involves secret royal blood.
Hans Christian Andersen, the author of duckling, was born in Denmark in 1805. He grew up feeling ugly and awkward, like the duckling in this story. With distinct facial features, a lone spirit, and a love of stories, he got bullied and teased by the other kids.
HANS CHRISTIAN ANDERSEN: Uh, hi, guys. You want to hear a story I just wrote?
BOY: Urgh, go away. We're playing marbles. We only care about marbles.
SOMAN CHAINANI: The joke, though, was on the bullies, because, like The Ugly Duckling, many historians think Hans had a secret identity. There's evidence that suggests he was actually a secret son of Denmark's future king, Christian VIII. And like the duckling, Hans would one day soar above his haters. He went on to write some of the most famous fairy tales ever, like The Ugly Duckling, The Little Mermaid, and The Snow Queen, which the movie Frozen is based on. Basically, he was the Taylor Swift of fairy tales, turning his pain into power and also earning millions of dollars for Disney along the way.
And speaking of Disney, Ugly Duckling is number one for another reason-- clear moral lessons. Nowadays, we need guidance more than ever, and the ugly duckling delivers. It tells us good things take time, that we all have beauty inside us, and you should not judge a book by its cover. These are all timeless, universal lessons that form the foundations of human society. Jack, meanwhile, teaches you it's fun and OK to disobey your parents and break into people's homes and steal their stuff, but I digress, because you have a book report due.
[BELL RINGS]
Quick, everyone is walking into class. What's your report going to be on? The short and sweet masterpiece by the guy who wrote Frozen, or some morally dubious yawningly long tale about a kid who puts his faith in some magic beans? If you want that, hey, I can tell you, kid, those beans are not the answer.
MOLLY BLOOM: [CHUCKLES] A beautiful argument there for The Ugly Duckling. Hugo, what stood out to you about Soman's Declaration of Greatness?
HUGO: Well, I obviously love the sentiment that going from being alone to kind of growing into your inner beauty is very nice. And I also thought it was very interesting that one of the main morals of the story is that good things take time, but also that fairy tales should be kept short.
MOLLY BLOOM: Mhm. [CHUCKLES] Very good point. All right, Adam, it is time for your rebuttal. Tell us why The Ugly Duckling leaves you unimpressed. You have 30 seconds, and your time starts now.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Well, I really agree with Hugo. It would be really nice if the moral of the story was about inner beauty. Unfortunately, that isn't the moral of the story. The moral of the story is you're ugly now, but don't worry, you'll be beautiful later. But what if you aren't? Or even, who cares about what you look like? What about what's inside of you that matters? Are you smart? Are you interesting? Are you kind? And all of this is kind of proven by the fact that when Hans Christian Andersen did grow up, he was actually one of the most desperate followers in Denmark.
MOLLY BLOOM: And time. Ooh, cliffhanger there.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Yeah, I know. I wish I had a clock in front of me so I knew my 30 seconds. I would have stopped.
SOMAN CHAINANI: I mean, I think the thing that he's missing is what it's like to be a teenage boy nowadays, like Hugo, where you are suffering in silence for a very long time, waiting for your swan years. And the truth is, if they don't come quickly, it's OK, you can find a dermatologist just in time to become a swan.
[LAUGHTER]
ADAM GIDWITZ: I just have to react and say that Soman's obvious pandering to the teenage audience, between the Taylor Swift references and TikTok and pointing out that I've never heard an Olivia Rodrigo song--
SOMAN CHAINANI: You have not. You've heard nothing.
ADAM GIDWITZ: --is really the lowest common denominator. Soman, you can do better.
HUGO: I just wanted to say, who says I'm not in my swan years yet?
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Oh, there you go. That's right, Soman. Underestimating Hugo here.
SOMAN CHAINANI: Oh, boy.
MOLLY BLOOM: All right, Hugo, the swan, it is time to abort some points for this round. Please give one point to the Declaration of Greatness that you liked best and one point to the rebuttal that won you over. You get to decide what makes a winning argument. Did one team's jokes make you giggle? Was another team's logic impeccable? Award your points, but don't tell us who they're going to. Have you made your decision?
HUGO: Yes.
MOLLY BLOOM: Wonderful. Soman and Adam, how are you two feeling so far?
SOMAN CHAINANI: This is playing out exactly like I imagined. Adam is trying to do the assignment, and I'm doing everything to cheat and undercut.
MOLLY BLOOM: [LAUGHS]
ADAM GIDWITZ: I knew it was going to happen like this. I knew you were going to do this to me.
[LAUGHTER]
MOLLY BLOOM: Well, we're going to have a quick break. Water your magic beans and smooth your feathers.
HUGO: And we'll be right back with more Smash Boom Best.
ANNOUNCER: You're listening to State of Debate, home to raging rhetoric and awe-inspiring argumentation.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Hi, Statie Debaties. I'm Taylor Lincoln, and I'm here with the Bert to my Ernie, Todd Douglas.
TODD DOUGLAS: What can I say? I love vertical stripes and being a realist. I also love spotting logical fallacies.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: A logical fallacy is a debate doozy that makes your argument weaker. And we just saw someone use the middle ground fallacy.
TODD DOUGLAS: That's when someone thinks that the middle ground between two extremes must be the truth.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Check it out.
[MOVIE PROJECTOR RUNNING]
[DOG BARKING]
SAM: Hey, Carrie, do you want a chocolate peanut butter cup?
CARRIE: Ooh, yeah. Those are my favorite. Thanks, Sam.
[DOG BARKING]
SAM: Sounds like Mr. Fiddlesticks wants one, too. Can he have one?
CARRIE: Oh, that's sweet of you, but it's not a good idea. Chocolate isn't good for dogs because it can make them sick. No chocolate for you, Mr. Fiddlesticks.
SAM: That's silly. I say dogs love chocolate. It makes them happy, so they should get a lot of it. Here you go, little buddy.
CARRIE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. No, wait! Stop! Sam, you're just wrong. There are lots of veterinarians who will tell you chocolate is bad for dogs. They should never have any, full stop.
SAM: You say dogs can't have any chocolate. I say they should have a lot. How about we meet in the middle and agree dogs can have a little chocolate? That seems reasonable, right?
CARRIE: No way!
[BUZZ]
TODD DOUGLAS: Oh, no, no, no, that is a debate flopperino.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Compromises are good when it comes to deciding what to eat for a snack.
TODD DOUGLAS: Or which movie you should watch with your friends.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Right. But you should never compromise on the facts, like the fact that chocolate is bad for dogs, and there's no way around or in between that.
TODD DOUGLAS: And that's that on that, debate-arinos.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Catch you next time on--
TODD AND TAYLOR: State of Debate.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
ANNOUNCER: Brains On Universe is a family of podcasts for kids and their adults. Since you're a fan of Smash Boom Best, we know you'll love the other shows in our universe. Come on, let's explore.
[ROCKET LAUNCHING]
COMPUTER: Here we are in Brains On Universe, home to my favorite podcasts. Brains On! Smash Boom Best. Forever Ago. [GASPS] I found one.
[BEEPING]
MAN: Ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba, Brains On!
COMPUTER: Brains On!, a science podcast for kids and families.
[BEEPING]
MOLLY BLOOM: Let's start with our pal, the sun.
SUN: Did somebody call their favorite star? It's me, the sun. The sun is made up of very, very hot elect--
COMPUTER: [GASPS] Oh, what a great show.
[BEEPING]
Need more Brains On! now!
[EXPLOSION]
ANNOUNCER: Listen to Brains On! wherever you get your podcasts.
MAN: Smash Boom Best.
MOLLY BLOOM: You're listening to Smash Boom Best. I'm your host, Molly Bloom,
HUGO: And I'm your judge, Hugo.
MOLLY BLOOM: And we love getting debate suggestions from our listeners. Take a listen to this delicious debate idea from Sebastian.
SEBASTIAN: Hi, my name is Sebastian, and I'm from Manchester, Vermont. My debate is sushi versus ramen.
HUGO: Don't make me choose.
MOLLY BLOOM: We'll check back in at the end of this episode to see which side Sebastian thinks should win.
HUGO: And now it's back to our debate-- Jack and the Beanstalk versus The Ugly Duckling.
MOLLY BLOOM: That's right. And it's time for round two, the Micro Round. For the Micro Round challenge, each team has prepared a creative response to a prompt they received in advance. For Adam and Soman, the prompt was cribs, where each debater has to give us a tour of their character's home. Adam went first last time. So, Soman, you're up. Give us a tour inspired by The Ugly Duckling.
[KNOCK ON DOOR]
UGLY DUCKLING: Good morning. Let me start by saying it's an honor to finally be on the show. I'm the swan, formerly known as The Ugly Duckling. I'm known for my inner beauty, of course, but ever since I moved to Beverly Hills, I've been trying to make the rest of my life as beautiful as my famously pure soul, starting with my home.
Welcome to Villa Swan. We wanted to pay homage to my old, quaint little pond. We dug it up and put it into the foyer of my new chateau, a lovely reminder of how small my life used to be. No, if you can't swim, feel free to ride on one of our rubber duck pool floats. They're all the rage at my A-list parties.
[SQUEAKING]
Notice the gallery on your left, giant before and after portraits of me pre-swan and post-swan to remind everyone who visits that they, too, can go from a 0 to a 10, or at least a two to a three. Off the record, you'd be shocked how some people show up looking. You'd think they'd never looked in a mirror, or at least never saw their reflection in a crystal clear pool of water. Speaking of water, let's take the waterslide down to the gym.
[WATER SPLASHING]
Hope I didn't get your camera wet.
[PHONE RINGING]
Yes. Repossessed? They can't evict me. I'm like a duck version of Chappell Roan. Just ask the camera crew filming me right now. They're on their way? With a demolition crew? Oh, dear, I totally forgot. I'm late for a facial. Gotta keep my feathers smooth.
MOLLY BLOOM: [CHUCKLES] Was not expecting that twist at the end. Good storytelling. All right, Adam, it is your turn. Show us around a home inspired by Jack and the Beanstalk.
FAIRY GODMOTHER: Welcome to this edition of Fairy Tale Cribs, where we see the homes of the famous fairy tale characters. I'm your host, the fairy godmother, and we're here today with Jack from the beloved tale Jack and the Beanstalk. Jack, how are you today?
JACK: Uh, could you keep your voice down a little?
FAIRY GODMOTHER: Honey, how about you speak up a little? I think everyone wants to hear from you. Tell us about your beautiful and, well, fairly large home.
JACK: It's not my home. That's why we have to whisper.
FAIRY GODMOTHER: Um, whose home is it?
JACK: It belongs to that giant over there eating three whole oxen for breakfast, also to his wife. She's OK.
FAIRY GODMOTHER: He's eating three oxen? Like whole cows for breakfast?
JACK: Yeah, I think his wife fried them up like bacon. You should see the size of his fork. Of course, he's not using his fork. His table manners are pretty disgusting.
FAIRY GODMOTHER: Wait, but he can't see you?
JACK: No, I'm hiding in the bathtub.
FAIRY GODMOTHER: And are you holding a goose?
[GOOSE HONKS]
JACK: Yeah, it lays golden eggs. Cool, right?
GIANT: Fee-fi-fo-fum, I smell the blood of an Englishman.
JACK: Oh, crud. Not again.
FAIRY GODMOTHER: Are you OK, Jack?
JACK: Not really. Gotta go.
GIANT: [GROANING]
[CRASHING]
MOLLY BLOOM: A sneaky home tour. I love it. All right, Hugo, what did you like about Adam and Soman's Micro Rounds?
HUGO: Well, I really liked that The Ugly Duckling is on to bigger, better things, and he's kind of moving up in the world. But he's still remembering his roots and that he was once ugly. And I thought it was funny that Jack has kind of turned into a bit of a freeloader, kind of house squatting, if you will. But he's making it work. He's doing his best.
MOLLY BLOOM: Absolutely. Well, Hugo, it is time to award a point for this Micro Round. The criteria are totally subjective and totally up to you. Have you made your decision?
HUGO: Yes. Then it's time for our third round, the super stealthy--
MAN: Ha-ha, hoo-ha.
MOLLY BLOOM: --Sneak Attack. This is our improvised round where debaters have to respond to a challenge on the spot. Today's Sneak Attack is called Too Nice to Handle. It's a good old-fashioned compliment-off. Debaters get the chance to give three compliments to the other side, the debater or the topic. Who has the sweeter words, the kookiest compliments, the awesomest accolades? We're going to start with Adam. Let's hear your first compliment for The Ugly Duckling.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Well, it's really a compliment for Soman. Soman is an incredible author of books that take the dark side of fairy tales. And he has really shown us the dark side of The Ugly Duckling, how The Ugly Duckling really grew up to be a totally vain swan who's obsessed with his own appearance. So I was really impressed with that.
MOLLY BLOOM: All right, Soman, it is your turn. Let's hear your first compliment for Jack and the Beanstalk.
SOMAN CHAINANI: I like how Adam gravitates towards these imaginary creatures, like unicorns and giants, like you're supposed to leave the absolutely very real, mundane aspects of your normal life to go chasing these fantastic creatures that don't exist in the hopes that maybe you will find an adventure beyond the kind of interminable, guaranteed boredom of your normal existence, which I think is really aspirational, actually.
MOLLY BLOOM: All right, Adam, it is your turn.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Well, I'd also like to give a compliment to Hans Christian Andersen, who was, in his adulthood, a desperate follower, so desperate to have the approval of the members of the court in Denmark and to have people like him and compliment him. And it's amazing that he wrote a story that has had such a great effect on the world, has such a wonderful lesson that he himself never learned.
MOLLY BLOOM: Mhm. All right, Soman, it is your turn. Let's hear your next compliment.
SOMAN CHAINANI: I thought it was really, really clever that he ignored the character of the mother altogether, because she's truly the hero of this story if you think about it. She's just trying to save her family and get some money, and she just sends her son with a very simple task. And then he comes home with beans. She shows quite an amazing amount of restraint. So to ignore her and focus on Jack, on the hero is a good way of compensating for the story's shortcomings.
[LAUGHTER]
MOLLY BLOOM: Adam, it is time for your final compliment.
ADAM GIDWITZ: I'm just impressed about how Soman knows so many teen keywords. He just has every last little teen checklist keyword. Have you hit them all so far on your checklist, or are there more to go?
MOLLY BLOOM: He's checking.
SOMAN CHAINANI: No. No, I have more coming in a second.
MOLLY BLOOM: All right, Soman, let's hear your final compliment.
SOMAN CHAINANI: I was very moved by Adam's story about how he found his friends and kind of made the best of his life. The problem is, though, it doesn't actually represent what Jack was because Jack never had any friends. So I like that Adam took Jack's story and tried to create a sequel where he finds friends.
MOLLY BLOOM: Oh, excellent work both of you. These two real-life friends clearly love each other very deeply, deep down in the bottom of their hearts. OK, Hugo, it is time to award a point to the side that impressed you the most. Have you made up your mind?
HUGO: Yes.
MOLLY BLOOM: Perfect. Then it's time for our final round, the Final Six. In this round, each team will have just six words to sum up the glory of their side. OK, Soman, let's hear your six words for why The Ugly Duckling should be crowned the ultimate winner.
SOMAN CHAINANI: Iconic, bop, short as a haiku.
MOLLY BLOOM: Mhm, lovely. All right, Adam, it is your turn. Give us six words on why Jack should lead the pack.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Jack is me. Jack is you.
MOLLY BLOOM: Mhm, wonderful. Those were both thinkers.
HUGO: Yeah.
MOLLY BLOOM: I enjoyed them both. All right, Hugo, only one of them, though, can get the final point for this round. Have you made your decision?
HUGO: Yes.
MOLLY BLOOM: All right, tally up those points. Are you ready to crown one team the Smash Boom Best?
HUGO: Yes.
MOLLY BLOOM: Drum roll, please. And the winner is--
HUGO: Jack and the Beanstalk.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Wow. Oh, thank you, Hugo, I am genuinely shocked at that. It's true and legit a surprise in my voice.
SOMAN CHAINANI: This track.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Soman, I thought you did an amazing job, and I wish we could talk about fairy tales all day long. I love talking to you about them.
SOMAN CHAINANI: I'm usually the villain in the story, so I'm actually quite happy with the loss.
[LAUGHTER]
ADAM GIDWITZ: But you love that role. You relish it.
SOMAN CHAINANI: I love it. Love it.
MOLLY BLOOM: Hugo, what was your favorite part of the debate?
HUGO: Oh, gosh. I really liked both of the Micro Rounds. I loved the house tours. I thought they were very funny. And I don't know, I thought that both the kind of poetic endings were very good as well. And I'm very interested at the idea of Jack and the Beanstalk 2, so.
MOLLY BLOOM: Yes, excellent.
ADAM GIDWITZ: For realsies, I think Soman thinks really deeply about fairy tales, and he hides it in this really funny snark. And he explores the dark side of fairy tales, which I also love. But what he does is he goes into the dark side. He allows you to play in it, feel a little naughty, but then actually find something beautiful and meaningful inside of them. So I love Soman very much.
SOMAN CHAINANI: Adam is just the most brilliant human. And so you can't compete with him on substance. So I came in very much ready to completely go after everything but substance. There would be enough. And the fact that it wasn't is a triumph for good over evil. So well done, Hugo. I would have been quite disturbed if it had gone the other way.
[LAUGHTER]
MOLLY BLOOM: Well, you're two friends who complement each other very well in all the senses of the word.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Well, that's it for today's debate battle. Hugo crowned Jack and the Beanstalk the Smash Boom Best. But what about you?
HUGO: Head to smashboom.org and vote to tell us who you think won.
MOLLY BLOOM: Smash Boom Best is brought to you by Brains On! and APM Studios. It's produced by me, Molly Bloom--
ANNA WEGGEL: Anna Weggel.
MOLLY BLOOM: --and--
ARON WOLDESLASSIE: Aron Woldeslassie.
MOLLY BLOOM: We had engineering help from Josh Savageau, Brian Hartman, and Gary O'Keefe with sound design by Anna Weggel. Our editors are--
SHAHLA FARZAN: Shahla Farzan.
MOLLY BLOOM: --and--
SANDEN TOTTEN: Sanden Totten.
MOLLY BLOOM: And we had production help from the rest of the Brains On Universe team.
ROSIE DUPONT: Rosie duPont.
RACHEL BREES: Rachel Brees.
ANNA GOLDFIELD: Anna Goldfield.
NICO GONZALEZ WISLER: Nico Gonzalez Wisler.
RUBY GUTHRIE: Ruby Guthrie.
LAUREN HUMPERT: Lauren Humpert.
JESS MILLER: Jess Miller.
JOSHUA RAY: Joshua Ray.
MARC SANCHEZ: Marc Sanchez.
MOLLY BLOOM: And--
CHARLOTTE TRAVER: Charlotte Traver.
MOLLY BLOOM: Our executive producer is Beth Pearlman, and the APM Studios executives in charge are Chandra Kavati and Joanne Griffith. Our announcer is Marley Feuerwerker-Otto. And we want to give a special thanks to Austin Cross and Taylor Kaufman. Adam, is there anyone you'd like to give a shout-out to today?
ADAM GIDWITZ: Hugo, Soman, and fairy tales.
MOLLY BLOOM: Wonderful. And how about you, Soman? Any special shout-outs?
SOMAN CHAINANI: Super excited to be here with Adam, my friend, and to have Hugo judging us and to [? June ?] [? Sequoia, ?] who was a big help on teaching me everything I need to know about The Ugly Duckling and Hans Christian Andersen.
MOLLY BLOOM: Awesome. And, Hugo, how about you? Any special thanks or shout-outs?
HUGO: Olivia Rodrigo and Chappell Roan.
MOLLY BLOOM: [LAUGHS] Before we go, let's check in and see who Sebastian thinks should win the sushi versus ramen debate.
SEBASTIAN: I think sushi would win because the combination of fish, veggies, fries, and seaweed is very good.
MOLLY BLOOM: If you're between the ages of 13 and 18 and you'd like to be a judge, or if you're any age and you have an idea for a knock-down, drag-out debate, head to. smashboom.org/contact and drop us a line. Make sure to subscribe to Brains On Universe on YouTube, where you can watch animated versions of some of your favorite episodes. We'll be back with a new Smash Boom Best debate battle next week-- Mars versus Saturn. Bye-bye.
SOMAN CHAINANI: See Ya.
HUGO: Bye.
ADAM GIDWITZ: Goodbye.
[MUSIC PLAYING] Ooh, you're the Smash Boom Best
Ooh, put you through the test
Ooh, you're the Smash Boom Best
Ooh, better than the rest
It's Smash Boom Best
It's Smash Boom Best
ADAM GIDWITZ: You all made me very nervous in the run-up to this with all you guys-- so much preparation and research and fact-checking. I was like, oh, my goodness.
MOLLY BLOOM: [LAUGHS]
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