They come in pairs, they both wiggle and they’re going up against each other in today’s debate! It’s Eyebrows vs. Thumbs! Listen as producer and writer Menaka Wilhelm raises eyebrows for team eyebrows while comedian Katie McVay declares a thumb war for team thumbs. Who will be crowned the fiercest physical feature? Vote below for the team YOU think won!
Also… do you have your Smarty Pass yet? Get yours today for just $4/month (or $36/year) and get bonus episodes every month, and ad-free versions of every episode of Brains On, Smash Boom Best, Moment of Um and Forever Ago. Visit www.smartypass.org to get your Smarty Pass today. As an added bonus, your Smarty Pass will grant you access to a super special debate starring Sanden and Molly!
Audio Transcript
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MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: From the brains behind Brains On!, it's Smash Boom Best, the show for people with big opinions.
ANNA WEGGLE: Hi, I'm Anna Weggle, filling in for Molly Bloom. And this is Smash Boom Best, the show where we take two things, smash them together, and ask you to decide which one is best.
Today's debate features two features that come in pairs and love to wiggle. Its eyebrows versus thumbs. In one corner, we've got producer and writer, Menaka Wilhelm, raising eyebrows for team eyebrows.
MENAKA WILHELM: Yeah. And I hope everybody is ready to brow down to the greatness of eyebrows.
ANNA WEGGLE: And comedian Katie McVay is here to declare a thumb war for team thumbs.
KATIE MCVAY: I thumb my nose at the idea that anything is better than thumbs.
ANNA WEGGLE: And here to judge it all is Daniel from Toronto. Daniel loves playing baseball. He's made his own periodic table of elements. He has a cat and once raised three ducklings. Hi, Daniel.
DANIEL: Hi.
ANNA WEGGLE: Daniel. Please, please, please tell us, how did you become the owner of three baby ducks?
DANIEL: Oh, well, those ducklings were not ours. They were borrowed. And believe me, I would pay to own those guys for the rest of my life.
ANNA WEGGLE: OK. OK. So how did you become the borrower of three baby ducks?
DANIEL: So my mom got the rights to borrow three baby ducks from a farm, where you take them for up to six weeks so that they can mature. And then at the end of the six weeks, we give them back to the farm.
ANNA WEGGLE: What do we need to know about having baby ducklings around? What don't we know about that?
DANIEL: You got to be prepared for the poop. They poop everywhere.
[LAUGHTER]
ANNA WEGGLE: Honestly, that's good advice in life, really.
DANIEL: Definitely.
ANNA WEGGLE: OK. Now, do you have any advice for our debaters today?
DANIEL: I think you got to be headstrong and say what's the best about your side. And also, keep a little bit light and fun.
ANNA WEGGLE: So will Daniel side with Menaka or Katie? We just won't know until we know. Before we dive in, let's review the rules of the game.
Every debate consists of four rounds of argumentation, the Declaration of Greatness, the Micro Round, the Sneak Attack, and the Final Six. After each round, our judge, Daniel, will award points to the team that impressed him the most. But he'll keep his decisions top secret until the end of the debate.
Listeners, we want you to judge too. Mark down your points as you listen. And at the end of the show, head to our website, smashboom.org, and vote for whichever team you think won.
OK, Menaka, Katie, and Daniel, are you ready?
DANIEL: Yes, sir.
MENAKA WILHELM: Yes.
KATIE MCVAY: Yes.
ANNA WEGGLE: Then it's time for the--
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: Declaration of Greatness.
[HORN BLOWS]
ANNA WEGGLE: In this round, our debaters will present a well crafted immersive argument in favor of their side. Then they'll each have 30 seconds to rebut their opponent's statements. We flipped a coin. And Menaka, you're up first. Tell us why we should bow to the glory of the eyebrow.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
LEFT BROW: Hi. I'm your left eyebrow.
RIGHT BROW: And I'm your right.
MENAKA WILHELM: Holy hairs. Hi. Wow. I've never noticed you two like this. My face, it's so small. But you too, you're so bushy, like you were made for a bigger head.
LEFT BROW: Yeah, got to keep the sun and sweat out of your eyes. We're bulking up because the bigger we are, the more powerful we are.
MENAKA WILHELM: And you're doing great. You both almost reached my hair on the sides.
LEFT BROW: And it's not just at the sides.
MENAKA WILHELM: [GASPS] You're right. If I lean in and look really, really close, you two almost touch in the middle. I got to go show my little sister. I love you, guys.
LEFT BROW: Oh, we love you, too. Smooches. [KISS]
MENAKA WILHELM: So yeah, I like my eyebrows. And I like what eyebrows can tell us. They show surprise, and delight, and anger, and skepticism. They let us express all kinds of things. Brows can go all the way from, "Wait, what? Janet feeds all the squirrels in the neighborhood marshmallows so they follow her around as she calls them shmalo squirrels?" to "Uh, no, I don't think I want to tame my own pack of squirrels."
And researchers think that evolving these forehead wigglers helped us communicate and survive as a species. You see, as our ancestors spread out and started living in groups, researchers think humans with smaller, more nimble brows could communicate better by making eyebrow expressions. This worked even across cultures, because brow language is universal.
MAN 1: Hey, it's a new person. I haven't seen them around before. Should we chase them away?
MAN 2: No. Look, they're raising their eyebrows in a friendly-like manner. I like them already. Let's invite them to [INAUDIBLE] meet with us.
MENAKA WILHELM: See? Our eyebrows are an instantaneous, silent communication form. That's true between species too.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Meet the brows on someone way cuter than me.
[BARKING]
My dog, Hank.
HANK'S BROWS: Hey, we're Hank's brows. Is it dinnertime yet?
ANNA WEGGLE: Not quite yet.
[BARKING]
Ever since Hank was a tiny baby puppy, his scruffy white brows have made him look like a grumpy old man.
HANK'S BROWS: We're pretty cute. How about a little snacky?
MENAKA WILHELM: Nice try. And Hank's brows are more than just fur. Dogs have face muscles that help them make expressions, too. Hank's eyebrow muscles make those adorable puppy dog eyes.
HANK'S BROWS: Yeah. Like this?
[TINKLING MUSIC]
[MUSIC PLAYING]
We're cranking the cute all the way up. And watch.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Can we please have an early dinner today?
MENAKA WILHELM: Honestly, how can I say no to that face?
[GRAINS DROPPING]
[BARKING]
There you go. And some ear scratches, too.
HANK'S EYEBROWS: Mission accomplished.
MENAKA WILHELM: And farther out in the animal kingdom, you can find plenty of charismatic brows, like the red panda's snuggly white eyebrows or the highlighter yellow spiky brows on the macaroni penguin.
And how your brows look is up to you. You can pluck them, wax them, comb them, shave them, and paint them back on. Bigger brows, smaller ones, striped, pierced, purple, your brows can stay on trend, or rebel against whatever everyone else is doing.
When I Google historical thumb trends, all I get are rude hand gestures.
LEFT BROW: Plus, Menaka's left brow jumping back in here, let's not forget the cultural cachet of brows. Back me up, right brow.
RIGHT BROW: Yes, there are iconic brows out there. Jonathan van Ness' friendly ones, Frida Kahlo's strong one, Groucho Marx's silly caterpillars. Personally, I'm going for a Zendaya shape, trying to stay current.
MENAKA WILHELM: You are so right. And you know what? I have no idea what any of those people's thumbs look like.
ANNA WEGGLE: Amazing. Daniel, what stood out to you about Menaka's Declaration of Greatness?
DANIEL: I think what stood out to me was the fact that dogs could manipulate their eyes to change their emotions. And my cat, Lola, definitely can do that. I have never seen any other cat that's that desperate for food.
ANNA WEGGLE: OK. Katie, it's time for your rebuttal. Tell us why we should beware of the hair that is eyebrows. You have 30 seconds. And your time starts now.
KATIE MCVAY: Style over substance? Not on my watch. Eyebrows may be stylish, but they're also sweaty. There's a sweaty underbelly to the stylish brow. You may be looking and say, oh, that person looks cool. But what they're really holding inside those eyebrows are just a bunch of sweaty, gross old skins. So look deeper than you think, because eyebrows, they do stink.
ANNA WEGGLE: And time. Wow. I suddenly feel very self-conscious about my own face.
KATIE MCVAY: [LAUGHS]
ANNA WEGGLE: [LAUGHS]
KATIE MCVAY: And that is what I'm here to do. Yeah, I want to get everybody really feeling insecure.
[LAUGHTER]
ANNA WEGGLE: I need to go wash my eyebrows.
MENAKA WILHELM: I would say, though, all of that that's stored in your eyebrows is to protect your eyes. So, I mean, you're probably not wrong.
KATIE MCVAY: I really care for my eyes. So I--
[LAUGHTER]
ANNA WEGGLE: Only if you have eyes.
KATIE MCVAY: If you care about your eyes, that's your business. But me, I say, put the sweat right in them.
MENAKA WILHELM: [LAUGHS]
ANNA WEGGLE: OK. It's your turn, Katie. Tell us why we should hand victory to the thumb.
MAN 3: 1, 2, 3, 4. I declare a thumb war.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
WOMAN 1: That was my line. But yes, our two thumbs are in opposition.
MAN 3: Yeah. Thumbs that fight. Opposable thumbs. [CHUCKLE]
WOMAN 1: Opposable doesn't mean thumbs that fight.
MAN 3: Wait, what? What does it mean?
WOMAN 1: It means you can use your thumb to touch all the fingers on your hand. So your left thumb can touch your left index finger. Your left ring finger, your--
MAN 3: Geez. I thought thumbs were just for war. What else don't I know about thumbs?
KATIE MCVAY: A lot. And that's what we're here to talk about, the thumb. Other animals can do lots of things with hands, paws, feet, and hooves, but very few have thumbs. And if they do have thumbs, like species of primate or the panda, those thumbs still don't have the range of motion our thumbs do.
Thumbs not only look cool, like a grumpy grandpa for your hand, they allow us to grasp really well. This helped humans become the inventive, artistic, ambitious species we are. Just think of all the things thumbs help us do.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
SUPER THUMB: It's me, Super Thumb. I make so many activities easier with my super thumb powers.
WOMAN 2: Sacrebleu. It is hard to hold a paintbrush to do my detailed paintings.
SUPER THUMB: I can help with that. Just use your thumb to grip the brush.
[TINKLING SOUND]
WOMAN 2: Mon Dieu! You solved it. Merci, Super Thumb.
MAN 4: Gosh, it's hard to pitch a ball. If my fingers could just--
SUPER THUMB: Hmm, I think what you need is a thumb.
[TINKLING SOUND]
[SWOOSH]
MAN 4: Well, darn tootin'. Now, that's a fastball. Thanks, Super Thumb.
WOMAN 3: [SIGHS] I want to make a clock that's small enough to fit on the wrist, but my fingers just aren't precise enough.
SUPER THUMB: Hmm, I think your problems can be solved using a thumb.
[TINKLING SOUND]
WOMAN 3: [GASPS] That's exactly what I needed.
[TICKLING]
Thanks, Super Thumb.
SUPER THUMB: There's no digit quite like the Super Thumb.
KATIE MCVAY: On an evolutionary scale, thumbs were really important in creating humanity. Our art, sports, and tools were all helped along by having opposable thumbs. Have eyebrows done that? I don't think so.
And while eyebrows may be a good way to communicate, lifting them to express surprise, for example, they can't beat the thumb. People have been using their thumbs to express things since ancient times, like the thumbs up, given by emperors to gladiators in ancient Rome.
[APPLAUSE]
MAN 5: I've finished my battle. How did I do, Caesar?
CEASAR: I give this gladiator fight two thumbs up.
AUDIENCE: [GASPS]
MAN 5: Yay. Is that good? Wait, why do I suddenly feel like that's not good? Release the lion.
[GROWLING]
KATIE MCVAY: Yeah. Some experts say, in Roman times, thumbs up was a bad thing. Yikes. But a powerful gesture, nonetheless. And since the 1910S, thumbs up means "Great job" or "I like this." And we use it all the time.
The original like on Facebook, the thumb. How do you react to a message on a phone? With a thumb. One of the first emojis ever created, yeah, the thumb. This little digit sure says a lot.
Finally, thumbs are fun. You can have a thumb war. You can draw a face on one and use it as a puppet. They can help you solve a Rubik's Cube or play a kalimba, a.k.a. a thumb piano.
[PIANO MELODY]
It's perfect when you need some distraction. Try having an eyebrow war on a long car ride. I dare you.
MAN 6: 1, 2, 3, 4. I declare an eyebrow war. Now, lock your eyebrows with mine.
[THUD]
Aw. You bonked my head. This is the pits.
[CAR HONKS]
KATIE MCVAY: Thumbs are a unique human feature that allows us to express ourselves, to play, and to win at evolution. Don't take my word for it, just listen to everyone's favorite super digit.
SUPER THUMB: When in doubt, Super Thumb is here to help.
KATIE MCVAY: Thanks, Super Thumb. Thumbs get two thumbs up from me.
ANNA WEGGLE: Wow. Daniel, big question, what did you think about Katie's Declaration of Greatness? Did any moment stand out to you?
DANIEL: Yeah, I have to say, all of those stuff, like the baseball-- I have a pretty good fastball, and I can think the thumb for that.
ANNA WEGGLE: Have you ever had an eyebrow war with anyone?
DANIEL: I think that I would just react and either a head collision or something worse.
ANNA WEGGLE: [LAUGHS] Fair. Probably best to play it safe. OK, Menaka, it's time for your rebuttal against thumbs. Tell us why you're down on this digit. You've got 30 seconds. And go.
MENAKA WILHELM: OK. So thumbs are what make humans human. But here's the question I have for you about that, how cool is it really to be a human? Eyebrows make you like other animals. And humans, sure, we use our thumbs to do all kinds of useful and important things, but we've also used our thumbs to do some not great stuff. I don't need to get into that. But you can do some bad things with a thumb too, with an opposable digit.
I would also mention that Katie said the thumb looks like a grumpy grandpa, but I heard earlier--
ANNA WEGGLE: End time.
MENAKA WILHELM: --that Daniel's grandpa is on team eyebrow.
[LAUGHTER]
ANNA WEGGLE: Katie, do you have anything to say in response?
KATIE MCVAY: I just think Menaka's bold in taking an antihuman stance on this children's podcast.
[LAUGHTER]
And I support her for her work in that venture.
ANNA WEGGLE: OK, Daniel, give one point to the Declaration of Greatness you liked best, and one point to the rebuttal that won you over. You get to decide what makes a winning argument. Did one team's jokes make you giggle? Was another team's logic to die for? Award your point, but don't tell us who's getting those points.
DANIEL: I have awarded the points.
[BELL RINGS]
ANNA WEGGLE: Wonderful. Katie and Menaka, how were you two feeling so far?
KATIE MCVAY: Great. Honestly, I'm giving myself two thumbs up for how good I'm doing.
[LAUGHTER]
I'm not a humble contestant, but I am an honest one.
[LAUGHTER]
MENAKA WILHELM: The thing about it is that I drew a little face on my thumb. But because it was a thumb, it was a sad face. It turned out to be sad. That's just what happened. But then on a different thumb, I drew little eyebrows, and I got a happy face. So I think that's something we should all think about. I don't think that's a coincidence.
ANNA WEGGLE: Oh, OK. So the pieces are coming together over there.
MENAKA WILHELM: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
ANNA WEGGLE: You're feeling good is what you're saying.
MENAKA WILHELM: Yeah, I'm feeling good, too.
ANNA WEGGLE: OK. It's time for a quick break. So manicure those beautiful brows and prune those pretty pinchers.
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: And we'll be right back with more Smash Boom Best.
You're listening to State of Debate, home to rage, and rhetoric, and awe-inspiring argumentation.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Greetings, debate enthusiasts. I'm Taylor Lincoln, the most enthusiastic of debaters.
TODD DOUGLAS: And I'm Todd Douglas, the most debatable of enthusiasts. And Taylor, I have a doozy of a fallacy for you today.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: A doozy? Do tell.
TODD DOUGLAS: Well, you know that fallacies are debate mistakes that make your argument easy to defeat.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: I sure do.
TODD DOUGLAS: Well, I just witnessed the fallacy fallacy. That's when you decide that if someone uses a fallacy, their entire argument must be bad.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: That is a doozy. It makes me feel dizzy.
TODD DOUGLAS: Take a listen.
[WHIRRING]
[MUSIC PLAYING]
HANSEL: Ooh. Gret, look. That house over there, it's made of sweets.
GRETEL: Oh, wow, Hansel.
HANSEL: I love sweets. Let's go start nibbling on the front steps.
GRETEL: Hansel, that is not a good idea.
HANSEL: Why not? I always say, when life gives you a house made out of sweets, you eat that house.
GRETEL: Yes, but too many sweets are bad for you. Plus, that house looks old. And those sweets might be super stale. And we're in the enchanted forest. Everybody knows that house that's made out of sweets in the enchanted forest belong to witches. And those witches will want to eat you.
HANSEL: Everyone knows? Gretel, my dear, that is a fallacy. You're assuming everyone knows this when some people might not. What a terrible argument. And since you used a fallacy, I'm sure that all your previous points are bad too.
Now, excuse me while I go snarf some roof shingles.
[BUZZ]
TODD DOUGLAS: Wow, Hansel, just because your sister used one logical fallacy doesn't mean you should ignore all of her arguments. Some of those points were solid.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: It's good to look closely at all the points made, and be skeptical, especially when mysterious candy houses are involved.
TODD DOUGLAS: Indeedy doody, Taylor tootie.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: And that's all we have time for today on State of Debate.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MAN 7: Best.
WOMAN 4: Boom.
WOMAN 5: Smash. Smash.
WOMAN 4: Boom.
MAN 7: Best.
ANNA WEGGLE: You're listening to Smash Boom Best. I'm your host, Anna Weggle, filling in for Molly Bloom.
DANIEL: And I'm your judge, Daniel.
ANNA WEGGLE: And we love getting debate suggestions from our listeners. Take a listen to this out-of-this-world debate idea from Andy.
ANDY: My debate idea is Star Wars versus Star Trek.
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: Nothing beats a space race.
ANNA WEGGLE: We'll check back in at the end of this episode to see which side Andy thinks should win.
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: And now it's back to our debate, eyebrows versus thumbs.
ANNA WEGGLE: That's right. And it's time for round 2, the--
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: Micro Round.
[DING]
ANNA WEGGLE: For the Micro Round challenge, each team has prepared a creative response to a challenge they received in advance. For Menaka's and Katie, it was Top of the Hour, a challenge where we asked them to talk up their side as if they were a local news anchor, filling us in on the latest headlines.
Menaka's went first last time. So, Katie, you're up. Tell us some breaking news about thumbs.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
ANGELINA THUMBALUMBA: Welcome to another edition of Thumbs Up News, with me, Angelina Thumbalumba. Our top story tonight, local botanists are taking green thumb literally. They're dying their thumbs green in support of new environmental protection measures.
And in business news, local business leader, Robert Allthumbs, wants us to stop using the phrase, "He's all thumbs," to mean clumsy. He says he hasn't dropped a plate in a year. And we should instead call clumsy people, "Butterfingers." We reached out to candy tycoon, Karen Butterfingers, to see how she feels about this, but we have yet to hear back.
A coalition of antiruler activists are pushing to make the rule of thumb, the rule of law. They propose getting rid of all rulers in favor of measuring using our thumbs. We reached out to the mayor for comment.
MAYOR: I've got to hand it to them. I've never seen a more hamfisted proposal.
ANGELINA THUMBALUMBA: In celebrity news, Tom Thumb and Thumbelina tied the knot in a lavish downtown ceremony. Attendees were dressed to the nines, except for Tom, who forgot his suit and had to wear pajamas. One guest said, Tom stuck out like a sore thumb.
And finally, doctors warn us not to take "Twiddle your thumbs" literally. We spoke with Doctor Pollux at Saint Digitus Hospital.
DR. POLLUX: People have been reporting to the ER in droves with twisted up thumbs. Please, try not to twiddle. If you're waiting around, sit on your hands instead.
ANGELINA THUMBALUMBA: And that's all our news tonight. Tune in next time for more Thumbs Up News, with me, Angelina Thumbalumba.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
ANNA WEGGLE: Wow. Thank you, Katie McVay, a.k.a. Angelina Thumbalumba.
DANIEL: I would tune in to that news broadcast every night.
KATIE MCVAY: Thank you, Daniel.
MENAKA WILHELM: Incredible wordplay there, Katie. I got to hand it to you. But notice, I used my fingers, not thumbs, please.
KATIE MCVAY: Oh, wow. OK. All right. A backhanded compliment.
ANNA WEGGLE: It's getting rough around here.
MENAKA WILHELM: [LAUGHS]
ANNA WEGGLE: OK. Menaka, now, it's your turn. What's the scoop on eyebrows.?
[MUSIC PLAYING]
HARRIET BROWN: Hello. Welcome to the Nightly News from the British Broadcasting Corporation. I'm Harriet Brown, filling in for whoever the normal, boring anchor is. Tonight, we've got a show guaranteed to flip your frown all the way around, to exercise your expressions, to flex your forehead. Buckle up.
First, we head to Ha Ville. It turns out, eyebrows are connected to the same nerves that cause a sneeze. So if you sneeze, when you tweeze, not that you need to tweeze, brows are beautiful in many forms, it's just a nerve signal mix up, no biggie.
Next, we head to the World Eyebrow Dance finals, where competitors are bopping with their brows in all kinds of creative ways. Reporter Flora Head is on the scene. Flora.
FLORA HEAD: Thanks, Harriet. So far, we've seen a lot of eyebrow raising to the beat, standard stuff. But tonight's final match up is between Browana Jones and Ynna Arch. And-- [GASPS] oh, my brows. Browana Jones is doing the double eyebrow wave. What we're watching is brow dance history.
This is amazing. I think my own eyebrows might be stuck permanently in awe. I can't believe it. Here it comes. Oh, my.
HARRIET BROWN: What an exciting way to wrap up our broadcast. Come back tomorrow, because if I'm still hosting, I guarantee another rainbrow of news. Thank you. And good night.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
ANNA WEGGLE: Wow. What a great browdcast. Fantastic job. Now, Daniel, what did you like about Menaka and Katie's Micro Rounds.
DANIEL: I like how both of the news reports were active. There's competitions and finals and popular things. I think both were great, yeah.
ANNA WEGGLE: It's time to award a point, but don't tell us who you're voting for. Have you made your decision?
DANIEL: It is done.
[BELL RINGS]
ANNA WEGGLE: Then it's time for our third round, the super stealthy--
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: Sneak Attack.
ANNA WEGGLE: This is our improvised round, where debaters have to respond to a challenge on the spot. Today, Sneak Attack is called Workout Challenge. Debaters, it is your job to talk us through a funky, fresh workout video all about your side. Tell us why we should try it and how fun it is. Debaters, are you ready for your sneak attack?
KATIE MCVAY: As ready as I'll ever be, baby.
MENAKA WILHELM: Yes, I believe I'm ready.
ANNA WEGGLE: OK. We'll start with Menaka. Let's hear how the brow gets buff.
MENAKA WILHELM: Perfect. So please picture my brows or your brows, whoever's brows you feel most inspired by, wearing an aerobics headset, so that's a headset and these brows are leading what we're going to call a brow bop class. We've got the greatest hip hop beats behind us. And we are going to bulk those brows.
So everyone with me? We're going to wiggle the brows together. And rep. And rep. And pulse. And now, up and down. So try up and down, and more reps, and more pulses. And just think really inspired thoughts about your brows. It's going to help them grow. It's going to help them become more powerful and more expressive. And you're going to be able to do the eyebrow wave with your brows if you stick with this program. So stick with us and you won't be disappointed. Thank you.
ANNA WEGGLE: Wow. My glasses just went for a ride.
KATIE MCVAY: [LAUGHS]
ANNA WEGGLE: I'll tell you what.
KATIE MCVAY: That is true. I was looking at my own eyebrow hair a lot. And I have to say, it is impressive.
ANNA WEGGLE: Amazing.
DANIEL: Could you teach me how to raise one eyebrow?
MENAKA WILHELM: Yes. That's week six.
[LAUGHTER]
Yes.
KATIE MCVAY: That felt like an empty promise.
[LAUGHTER]
ANNA WEGGLE: OK. Katie, it's your turn. Describe an exercise only the strongest of thumb wrestlers can perform.
KATIE MCVAY: Thumbs are important. Whether you're working in an office or you're part of the band, YMCA, you're going to need your thumbs. So this is something that can be done any day of the week, any time. All you need is your hands.
So what you're going to do is you're going to want to find a flat surface. And you're going to place your two thumbs atop it, so that they're looking at you, and you're looking at them, and you're thinking about how powerful they are and how powerful they will be.
Then you're going to use your hands as a counterweight. And you're just going to stretch those thumbs, baby, up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down. Soon, you'll be solving Rubik's Cubes in half the time. People will look at you, and you'll lift up cars using only one thumb.
And the world will cry, just because they're so thrilled to meet you. They're in awe of the power of your thumbs. And you will, in fact, you'll give a thumbs up so powerful, the entire movie industry will be back to 1970s levels of income. It's going to be incredible.
[LAUGHTER]
It's going to be incredible.
ANNA WEGGLE: Wow. I am sweating. That was so unbelievably specific.
MENAKA WILHELM: [LAUGHS]
ANNA WEGGLE: Wonderful job, Katie. OK, Daniel, think about which side impressed you the most. And award your fourth point, but don't tell us who you're giving it to. Have you made your decision?
DANIEL: OK, I've made my decision.
[BELL RINGS]
ANNA WEGGLE: Perfect. Then it's time for our final round.
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: The Final Six.
ANNA WEGGLE: In this round, each team will have just six words to sum up the glory of their side. Katie, let's hear your six words for our fifth digit.
KATIE MCVAY: Little digit, big impact. Evolutionary scale.
ANNA WEGGLE: Wow. OK. Menaka, it's your turn. Give us six words for our two eyebrows.
MENAKA WILHELM: Just remember, thumbs, dumb. Eyebrows., wow. [GIGGLES]
KATIE MCVAY: Notice how the thumb didn't have to attack in it's six words? It just supported its own side.
MENAKA WILHELM: [LAUGHS]
KATIE MCVAY: I would like to take note of that.
ANNA WEGGLE: That's true. That's true. Now, Daniel, award your point, but don't tell us who's getting those points. Have you made your decision?
DANIEL: Yeah.
[BELL RINGS]
ANNA WEGGLE: Are you ready to crown one team the Smash Boom Best?
DANIEL: I think I am.
ANNA WEGGLE: Drumroll, please.
[DRUMROLL]
And the winner is--
DANIEL: Eyebrows.
MENAKA WILHELM: Wow, an honor. [LAUGHS]
KATIE MCVAY: Thumbs down. Thumbs down. Once again, the eyebrows stole the glory of the only evolutionary innovation that has kept us from not-- Daniel, those fastballs meant nothing to you? The thumb? Look at your thumb.
DANIEL: Not everything--
KATIE MCVAY: Look at what it's done for you.
DANIEL: --but I had to choose one.
KATIE MCVAY: Oh. Oh. Betrayal would be written on my face, but I have shaved off my eyebrows in anger at this decision you've made. A thumb in your eye, sir. A thumb in your eye.
[LAUGHTER]
ANNA WEGGLE: The drama. So, Daniel, walk us through this. Was there a moment that really decided things for you?
DANIEL: It was the Final Six that decided it. It was like neck and neck. And extraordinary digit, yes, but eyebrows, thumbs down.
KATIE MCVAY: So what I'm hearing is I should have insulted eyebrows. I should have gone low instead of going high?
MENAKA WILHELM: In every game, there's both offense and defense. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
KATIE MCVAY: Wow. Wow.
MENAKA WILHELM: [LAUGHS]
ANNA WEGGLE: Honestly, I loved Menaka's use of her dog. I was biased towards Menaka's argument, thinking about my own dog and his little eyebrows. And thinking about Menaka's dog's eyebrows, I wanted to see them. I wished this was an audio-visual format so that I could picture Menaka's dog, because boy, boy, boy, so cute-sounding. And I loved hearing about animals with eyebrows.
MENAKA WILHELM: Yeah. And Katie, I mean, I love my thumbs. I use them all the time. I thought that the beginning of your Declaration of Greatness, where you had a thumb war, was so evocative. It was cinematic. I loved the scoring. I thought you made a great argument about thumbs and how useful they are. And I think you did a great job. I was really honored to compete against you, a veteran debater.
KATIE MCVAY: Menaka, I felt very similarly. I felt almost the same.
MENAKA WILHELM: [LAUGHS]
KATIE MCVAY: I was honored to compete against you on this field of debatery, even though I have, once again, been vanquished.
MENAKA WILHELM: [LAUGHS]
[MUSIC PLAYING]
ANNA WEGGLE: And that's it for today's debate battle. Daniel crowned eyebrows the Smash Boom Best. But what about you?
DANIEL: Head to smashboom.org, and vote to tell us who you think won. Smash Boom Best is brought to you by Brains On! and APM Studios. It's produced by--
MOLLY BLOOM: Molly Bloom
ANNA WEGGLE: And--
ARON WOLDESLASSIE: Aron Woldeslassie.
ANNA WEGGLE: We had engineering help from Jess Berg, Juan Carlos Torrado, and Camille [? Comeau, ?] with sound design by Aron Woldeslassie. Our editors are--
SHAHLA FARZAN: Shahla Farzan
ANNA WEGGLE: And--
SANDEN TOTTEN: Sanden Totten.
ANNA WEGGLE: And we had production help from the rest of the Brains On! University.
ROSIE DUPONT: Rosie duPont.
RACHEL ANNE BREES: Rachel Brees.
ANNA GOLDFIELD: Anna Goldfield.
NICO GONZALEZ WHISTLER: Nico Gonzalez Whistler.
RUBY GUTHRIE: Ruby Guthrie.
LAUREN HUMBERT: Lauren Humbert.
JESS MILLER: Jess Miller.
JOSHUA RAY: Joshua Ray.
MARC SANCHEZ: Marc Sanchez.
ANNA WEGGLE: And--
CHARLOTTE TRAVER: Charlotte Traver.
ANNA WEGGLE: Our executive producer is Beth Perlman. And the APM Studios executives in charge are Chandra Kavati and Joanne Griffith. Our announcer is Marley Feuerwerker-Otto. And we want to give a special thanks to Austin Cross and Taylor Coffman.
Menaka, is there anyone you'd like to give a shout out to today?
MENAKA WILHELM: Yes, I would love to give a shout out to my dog, Hank, as well as NBA basketball star, Anthony Davis, a.k.a. The Brow. I don't know him, but think he'd appreciate this show.
[LAUGHTER]
ANNA WEGGLE: Incredible. And how about you, Katie? Any special shout outs?
KATIE MCVAY: I would like to give a shout out to my dog, Seth. And he had nothing to do with the program, but he's very cool. And I would also like to give a shout out to one Willy Shakes, also known as William Shakespeare, if you're not close to him.
[LAUGHTER]
He has thought up so many thumb-related insults. And they really inspired me today. And then since we're just shouting at basketball teams, shout out to the LA Sparks, who I'm a big fan of.
MENAKA WILHELM: [LAUGHS]
ANNA WEGGLE: Daniel, do you want to give any special thanks?
DANIEL: I got to thank my family, my mom and brother, especially for driving me out, my grandparents, who did the debate with me, and my cat, Lola, who always begs for food.
ANNA WEGGLE: You better give her some. She's hungry. Before we go, let's check in and see who Andy thinks should win the Star Wars versus Star Trek debate.
ANDY: I think Star Trek would win. I like all the characters. And I think all the different episodes are really cool and awesome.
ANNA WEGGLE: If you're between the ages of 13 and 18 and you'd like to be a judge, or if you're any age and you have an idea for a knock down drag out debate, head to smashboom.org/contact and drop us a line. And make sure to subscribe to Brains On! Universe on YouTube, where you can watch animated versions of some of your favorite episodes. We'll be back with a new Smash Boom Best debate battle next week.
MENAKA WILHELM: Bye bye.
KATIE MCVAY: Thank you.
WOMAN 6: (SINGING) Smash Boom Best
Oh, put through the test
Oh, you're the Smash Boom Best
Oh, better than the rest
Its Smash Boom Best
It's Smash Boom Best
MENAKA WILHELM: I would like to note that I typed all of my DOG without using my thumbs. No spacebar needed.
ANNA WEGGLE: What? [LAUGHS]
ANNA WEGGLE: Hi, I'm Anna Weggle, filling in for Molly Bloom. And this is Smash Boom Best, the show where we take two things, smash them together, and ask you to decide which one is best.
Today's debate features two features that come in pairs and love to wiggle. Its eyebrows versus thumbs. In one corner, we've got producer and writer, Menaka Wilhelm, raising eyebrows for team eyebrows.
MENAKA WILHELM: Yeah. And I hope everybody is ready to brow down to the greatness of eyebrows.
ANNA WEGGLE: And comedian Katie McVay is here to declare a thumb war for team thumbs.
KATIE MCVAY: I thumb my nose at the idea that anything is better than thumbs.
ANNA WEGGLE: And here to judge it all is Daniel from Toronto. Daniel loves playing baseball. He's made his own periodic table of elements. He has a cat and once raised three ducklings. Hi, Daniel.
DANIEL: Hi.
ANNA WEGGLE: Daniel. Please, please, please tell us, how did you become the owner of three baby ducks?
DANIEL: Oh, well, those ducklings were not ours. They were borrowed. And believe me, I would pay to own those guys for the rest of my life.
ANNA WEGGLE: OK. OK. So how did you become the borrower of three baby ducks?
DANIEL: So my mom got the rights to borrow three baby ducks from a farm, where you take them for up to six weeks so that they can mature. And then at the end of the six weeks, we give them back to the farm.
ANNA WEGGLE: What do we need to know about having baby ducklings around? What don't we know about that?
DANIEL: You got to be prepared for the poop. They poop everywhere.
[LAUGHTER]
ANNA WEGGLE: Honestly, that's good advice in life, really.
DANIEL: Definitely.
ANNA WEGGLE: OK. Now, do you have any advice for our debaters today?
DANIEL: I think you got to be headstrong and say what's the best about your side. And also, keep a little bit light and fun.
ANNA WEGGLE: So will Daniel side with Menaka or Katie? We just won't know until we know. Before we dive in, let's review the rules of the game.
Every debate consists of four rounds of argumentation, the Declaration of Greatness, the Micro Round, the Sneak Attack, and the Final Six. After each round, our judge, Daniel, will award points to the team that impressed him the most. But he'll keep his decisions top secret until the end of the debate.
Listeners, we want you to judge too. Mark down your points as you listen. And at the end of the show, head to our website, smashboom.org, and vote for whichever team you think won.
OK, Menaka, Katie, and Daniel, are you ready?
DANIEL: Yes, sir.
MENAKA WILHELM: Yes.
KATIE MCVAY: Yes.
ANNA WEGGLE: Then it's time for the--
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: Declaration of Greatness.
[HORN BLOWS]
ANNA WEGGLE: In this round, our debaters will present a well crafted immersive argument in favor of their side. Then they'll each have 30 seconds to rebut their opponent's statements. We flipped a coin. And Menaka, you're up first. Tell us why we should bow to the glory of the eyebrow.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
LEFT BROW: Hi. I'm your left eyebrow.
RIGHT BROW: And I'm your right.
MENAKA WILHELM: Holy hairs. Hi. Wow. I've never noticed you two like this. My face, it's so small. But you too, you're so bushy, like you were made for a bigger head.
LEFT BROW: Yeah, got to keep the sun and sweat out of your eyes. We're bulking up because the bigger we are, the more powerful we are.
MENAKA WILHELM: And you're doing great. You both almost reached my hair on the sides.
LEFT BROW: And it's not just at the sides.
MENAKA WILHELM: [GASPS] You're right. If I lean in and look really, really close, you two almost touch in the middle. I got to go show my little sister. I love you, guys.
LEFT BROW: Oh, we love you, too. Smooches. [KISS]
MENAKA WILHELM: So yeah, I like my eyebrows. And I like what eyebrows can tell us. They show surprise, and delight, and anger, and skepticism. They let us express all kinds of things. Brows can go all the way from, "Wait, what? Janet feeds all the squirrels in the neighborhood marshmallows so they follow her around as she calls them shmalo squirrels?" to "Uh, no, I don't think I want to tame my own pack of squirrels."
And researchers think that evolving these forehead wigglers helped us communicate and survive as a species. You see, as our ancestors spread out and started living in groups, researchers think humans with smaller, more nimble brows could communicate better by making eyebrow expressions. This worked even across cultures, because brow language is universal.
MAN 1: Hey, it's a new person. I haven't seen them around before. Should we chase them away?
MAN 2: No. Look, they're raising their eyebrows in a friendly-like manner. I like them already. Let's invite them to [INAUDIBLE] meet with us.
MENAKA WILHELM: See? Our eyebrows are an instantaneous, silent communication form. That's true between species too.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Meet the brows on someone way cuter than me.
[BARKING]
My dog, Hank.
HANK'S BROWS: Hey, we're Hank's brows. Is it dinnertime yet?
ANNA WEGGLE: Not quite yet.
[BARKING]
Ever since Hank was a tiny baby puppy, his scruffy white brows have made him look like a grumpy old man.
HANK'S BROWS: We're pretty cute. How about a little snacky?
MENAKA WILHELM: Nice try. And Hank's brows are more than just fur. Dogs have face muscles that help them make expressions, too. Hank's eyebrow muscles make those adorable puppy dog eyes.
HANK'S BROWS: Yeah. Like this?
[TINKLING MUSIC]
[MUSIC PLAYING]
We're cranking the cute all the way up. And watch.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Can we please have an early dinner today?
MENAKA WILHELM: Honestly, how can I say no to that face?
[GRAINS DROPPING]
[BARKING]
There you go. And some ear scratches, too.
HANK'S EYEBROWS: Mission accomplished.
MENAKA WILHELM: And farther out in the animal kingdom, you can find plenty of charismatic brows, like the red panda's snuggly white eyebrows or the highlighter yellow spiky brows on the macaroni penguin.
And how your brows look is up to you. You can pluck them, wax them, comb them, shave them, and paint them back on. Bigger brows, smaller ones, striped, pierced, purple, your brows can stay on trend, or rebel against whatever everyone else is doing.
When I Google historical thumb trends, all I get are rude hand gestures.
LEFT BROW: Plus, Menaka's left brow jumping back in here, let's not forget the cultural cachet of brows. Back me up, right brow.
RIGHT BROW: Yes, there are iconic brows out there. Jonathan van Ness' friendly ones, Frida Kahlo's strong one, Groucho Marx's silly caterpillars. Personally, I'm going for a Zendaya shape, trying to stay current.
MENAKA WILHELM: You are so right. And you know what? I have no idea what any of those people's thumbs look like.
ANNA WEGGLE: Amazing. Daniel, what stood out to you about Menaka's Declaration of Greatness?
DANIEL: I think what stood out to me was the fact that dogs could manipulate their eyes to change their emotions. And my cat, Lola, definitely can do that. I have never seen any other cat that's that desperate for food.
ANNA WEGGLE: OK. Katie, it's time for your rebuttal. Tell us why we should beware of the hair that is eyebrows. You have 30 seconds. And your time starts now.
KATIE MCVAY: Style over substance? Not on my watch. Eyebrows may be stylish, but they're also sweaty. There's a sweaty underbelly to the stylish brow. You may be looking and say, oh, that person looks cool. But what they're really holding inside those eyebrows are just a bunch of sweaty, gross old skins. So look deeper than you think, because eyebrows, they do stink.
ANNA WEGGLE: And time. Wow. I suddenly feel very self-conscious about my own face.
KATIE MCVAY: [LAUGHS]
ANNA WEGGLE: [LAUGHS]
KATIE MCVAY: And that is what I'm here to do. Yeah, I want to get everybody really feeling insecure.
[LAUGHTER]
ANNA WEGGLE: I need to go wash my eyebrows.
MENAKA WILHELM: I would say, though, all of that that's stored in your eyebrows is to protect your eyes. So, I mean, you're probably not wrong.
KATIE MCVAY: I really care for my eyes. So I--
[LAUGHTER]
ANNA WEGGLE: Only if you have eyes.
KATIE MCVAY: If you care about your eyes, that's your business. But me, I say, put the sweat right in them.
MENAKA WILHELM: [LAUGHS]
ANNA WEGGLE: OK. It's your turn, Katie. Tell us why we should hand victory to the thumb.
MAN 3: 1, 2, 3, 4. I declare a thumb war.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
WOMAN 1: That was my line. But yes, our two thumbs are in opposition.
MAN 3: Yeah. Thumbs that fight. Opposable thumbs. [CHUCKLE]
WOMAN 1: Opposable doesn't mean thumbs that fight.
MAN 3: Wait, what? What does it mean?
WOMAN 1: It means you can use your thumb to touch all the fingers on your hand. So your left thumb can touch your left index finger. Your left ring finger, your--
MAN 3: Geez. I thought thumbs were just for war. What else don't I know about thumbs?
KATIE MCVAY: A lot. And that's what we're here to talk about, the thumb. Other animals can do lots of things with hands, paws, feet, and hooves, but very few have thumbs. And if they do have thumbs, like species of primate or the panda, those thumbs still don't have the range of motion our thumbs do.
Thumbs not only look cool, like a grumpy grandpa for your hand, they allow us to grasp really well. This helped humans become the inventive, artistic, ambitious species we are. Just think of all the things thumbs help us do.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
SUPER THUMB: It's me, Super Thumb. I make so many activities easier with my super thumb powers.
WOMAN 2: Sacrebleu. It is hard to hold a paintbrush to do my detailed paintings.
SUPER THUMB: I can help with that. Just use your thumb to grip the brush.
[TINKLING SOUND]
WOMAN 2: Mon Dieu! You solved it. Merci, Super Thumb.
MAN 4: Gosh, it's hard to pitch a ball. If my fingers could just--
SUPER THUMB: Hmm, I think what you need is a thumb.
[TINKLING SOUND]
[SWOOSH]
MAN 4: Well, darn tootin'. Now, that's a fastball. Thanks, Super Thumb.
WOMAN 3: [SIGHS] I want to make a clock that's small enough to fit on the wrist, but my fingers just aren't precise enough.
SUPER THUMB: Hmm, I think your problems can be solved using a thumb.
[TINKLING SOUND]
WOMAN 3: [GASPS] That's exactly what I needed.
[TICKLING]
Thanks, Super Thumb.
SUPER THUMB: There's no digit quite like the Super Thumb.
KATIE MCVAY: On an evolutionary scale, thumbs were really important in creating humanity. Our art, sports, and tools were all helped along by having opposable thumbs. Have eyebrows done that? I don't think so.
And while eyebrows may be a good way to communicate, lifting them to express surprise, for example, they can't beat the thumb. People have been using their thumbs to express things since ancient times, like the thumbs up, given by emperors to gladiators in ancient Rome.
[APPLAUSE]
MAN 5: I've finished my battle. How did I do, Caesar?
CEASAR: I give this gladiator fight two thumbs up.
AUDIENCE: [GASPS]
MAN 5: Yay. Is that good? Wait, why do I suddenly feel like that's not good? Release the lion.
[GROWLING]
KATIE MCVAY: Yeah. Some experts say, in Roman times, thumbs up was a bad thing. Yikes. But a powerful gesture, nonetheless. And since the 1910S, thumbs up means "Great job" or "I like this." And we use it all the time.
The original like on Facebook, the thumb. How do you react to a message on a phone? With a thumb. One of the first emojis ever created, yeah, the thumb. This little digit sure says a lot.
Finally, thumbs are fun. You can have a thumb war. You can draw a face on one and use it as a puppet. They can help you solve a Rubik's Cube or play a kalimba, a.k.a. a thumb piano.
[PIANO MELODY]
It's perfect when you need some distraction. Try having an eyebrow war on a long car ride. I dare you.
MAN 6: 1, 2, 3, 4. I declare an eyebrow war. Now, lock your eyebrows with mine.
[THUD]
Aw. You bonked my head. This is the pits.
[CAR HONKS]
KATIE MCVAY: Thumbs are a unique human feature that allows us to express ourselves, to play, and to win at evolution. Don't take my word for it, just listen to everyone's favorite super digit.
SUPER THUMB: When in doubt, Super Thumb is here to help.
KATIE MCVAY: Thanks, Super Thumb. Thumbs get two thumbs up from me.
ANNA WEGGLE: Wow. Daniel, big question, what did you think about Katie's Declaration of Greatness? Did any moment stand out to you?
DANIEL: Yeah, I have to say, all of those stuff, like the baseball-- I have a pretty good fastball, and I can think the thumb for that.
ANNA WEGGLE: Have you ever had an eyebrow war with anyone?
DANIEL: I think that I would just react and either a head collision or something worse.
ANNA WEGGLE: [LAUGHS] Fair. Probably best to play it safe. OK, Menaka, it's time for your rebuttal against thumbs. Tell us why you're down on this digit. You've got 30 seconds. And go.
MENAKA WILHELM: OK. So thumbs are what make humans human. But here's the question I have for you about that, how cool is it really to be a human? Eyebrows make you like other animals. And humans, sure, we use our thumbs to do all kinds of useful and important things, but we've also used our thumbs to do some not great stuff. I don't need to get into that. But you can do some bad things with a thumb too, with an opposable digit.
I would also mention that Katie said the thumb looks like a grumpy grandpa, but I heard earlier--
ANNA WEGGLE: End time.
MENAKA WILHELM: --that Daniel's grandpa is on team eyebrow.
[LAUGHTER]
ANNA WEGGLE: Katie, do you have anything to say in response?
KATIE MCVAY: I just think Menaka's bold in taking an antihuman stance on this children's podcast.
[LAUGHTER]
And I support her for her work in that venture.
ANNA WEGGLE: OK, Daniel, give one point to the Declaration of Greatness you liked best, and one point to the rebuttal that won you over. You get to decide what makes a winning argument. Did one team's jokes make you giggle? Was another team's logic to die for? Award your point, but don't tell us who's getting those points.
DANIEL: I have awarded the points.
[BELL RINGS]
ANNA WEGGLE: Wonderful. Katie and Menaka, how were you two feeling so far?
KATIE MCVAY: Great. Honestly, I'm giving myself two thumbs up for how good I'm doing.
[LAUGHTER]
I'm not a humble contestant, but I am an honest one.
[LAUGHTER]
MENAKA WILHELM: The thing about it is that I drew a little face on my thumb. But because it was a thumb, it was a sad face. It turned out to be sad. That's just what happened. But then on a different thumb, I drew little eyebrows, and I got a happy face. So I think that's something we should all think about. I don't think that's a coincidence.
ANNA WEGGLE: Oh, OK. So the pieces are coming together over there.
MENAKA WILHELM: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
ANNA WEGGLE: You're feeling good is what you're saying.
MENAKA WILHELM: Yeah, I'm feeling good, too.
ANNA WEGGLE: OK. It's time for a quick break. So manicure those beautiful brows and prune those pretty pinchers.
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: And we'll be right back with more Smash Boom Best.
You're listening to State of Debate, home to rage, and rhetoric, and awe-inspiring argumentation.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: Greetings, debate enthusiasts. I'm Taylor Lincoln, the most enthusiastic of debaters.
TODD DOUGLAS: And I'm Todd Douglas, the most debatable of enthusiasts. And Taylor, I have a doozy of a fallacy for you today.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: A doozy? Do tell.
TODD DOUGLAS: Well, you know that fallacies are debate mistakes that make your argument easy to defeat.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: I sure do.
TODD DOUGLAS: Well, I just witnessed the fallacy fallacy. That's when you decide that if someone uses a fallacy, their entire argument must be bad.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: That is a doozy. It makes me feel dizzy.
TODD DOUGLAS: Take a listen.
[WHIRRING]
[MUSIC PLAYING]
HANSEL: Ooh. Gret, look. That house over there, it's made of sweets.
GRETEL: Oh, wow, Hansel.
HANSEL: I love sweets. Let's go start nibbling on the front steps.
GRETEL: Hansel, that is not a good idea.
HANSEL: Why not? I always say, when life gives you a house made out of sweets, you eat that house.
GRETEL: Yes, but too many sweets are bad for you. Plus, that house looks old. And those sweets might be super stale. And we're in the enchanted forest. Everybody knows that house that's made out of sweets in the enchanted forest belong to witches. And those witches will want to eat you.
HANSEL: Everyone knows? Gretel, my dear, that is a fallacy. You're assuming everyone knows this when some people might not. What a terrible argument. And since you used a fallacy, I'm sure that all your previous points are bad too.
Now, excuse me while I go snarf some roof shingles.
[BUZZ]
TODD DOUGLAS: Wow, Hansel, just because your sister used one logical fallacy doesn't mean you should ignore all of her arguments. Some of those points were solid.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: It's good to look closely at all the points made, and be skeptical, especially when mysterious candy houses are involved.
TODD DOUGLAS: Indeedy doody, Taylor tootie.
TAYLOR LINCOLN: And that's all we have time for today on State of Debate.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MAN 7: Best.
WOMAN 4: Boom.
WOMAN 5: Smash. Smash.
WOMAN 4: Boom.
MAN 7: Best.
ANNA WEGGLE: You're listening to Smash Boom Best. I'm your host, Anna Weggle, filling in for Molly Bloom.
DANIEL: And I'm your judge, Daniel.
ANNA WEGGLE: And we love getting debate suggestions from our listeners. Take a listen to this out-of-this-world debate idea from Andy.
ANDY: My debate idea is Star Wars versus Star Trek.
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: Nothing beats a space race.
ANNA WEGGLE: We'll check back in at the end of this episode to see which side Andy thinks should win.
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: And now it's back to our debate, eyebrows versus thumbs.
ANNA WEGGLE: That's right. And it's time for round 2, the--
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: Micro Round.
[DING]
ANNA WEGGLE: For the Micro Round challenge, each team has prepared a creative response to a challenge they received in advance. For Menaka's and Katie, it was Top of the Hour, a challenge where we asked them to talk up their side as if they were a local news anchor, filling us in on the latest headlines.
Menaka's went first last time. So, Katie, you're up. Tell us some breaking news about thumbs.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
ANGELINA THUMBALUMBA: Welcome to another edition of Thumbs Up News, with me, Angelina Thumbalumba. Our top story tonight, local botanists are taking green thumb literally. They're dying their thumbs green in support of new environmental protection measures.
And in business news, local business leader, Robert Allthumbs, wants us to stop using the phrase, "He's all thumbs," to mean clumsy. He says he hasn't dropped a plate in a year. And we should instead call clumsy people, "Butterfingers." We reached out to candy tycoon, Karen Butterfingers, to see how she feels about this, but we have yet to hear back.
A coalition of antiruler activists are pushing to make the rule of thumb, the rule of law. They propose getting rid of all rulers in favor of measuring using our thumbs. We reached out to the mayor for comment.
MAYOR: I've got to hand it to them. I've never seen a more hamfisted proposal.
ANGELINA THUMBALUMBA: In celebrity news, Tom Thumb and Thumbelina tied the knot in a lavish downtown ceremony. Attendees were dressed to the nines, except for Tom, who forgot his suit and had to wear pajamas. One guest said, Tom stuck out like a sore thumb.
And finally, doctors warn us not to take "Twiddle your thumbs" literally. We spoke with Doctor Pollux at Saint Digitus Hospital.
DR. POLLUX: People have been reporting to the ER in droves with twisted up thumbs. Please, try not to twiddle. If you're waiting around, sit on your hands instead.
ANGELINA THUMBALUMBA: And that's all our news tonight. Tune in next time for more Thumbs Up News, with me, Angelina Thumbalumba.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
ANNA WEGGLE: Wow. Thank you, Katie McVay, a.k.a. Angelina Thumbalumba.
DANIEL: I would tune in to that news broadcast every night.
KATIE MCVAY: Thank you, Daniel.
MENAKA WILHELM: Incredible wordplay there, Katie. I got to hand it to you. But notice, I used my fingers, not thumbs, please.
KATIE MCVAY: Oh, wow. OK. All right. A backhanded compliment.
ANNA WEGGLE: It's getting rough around here.
MENAKA WILHELM: [LAUGHS]
ANNA WEGGLE: OK. Menaka, now, it's your turn. What's the scoop on eyebrows.?
[MUSIC PLAYING]
HARRIET BROWN: Hello. Welcome to the Nightly News from the British Broadcasting Corporation. I'm Harriet Brown, filling in for whoever the normal, boring anchor is. Tonight, we've got a show guaranteed to flip your frown all the way around, to exercise your expressions, to flex your forehead. Buckle up.
First, we head to Ha Ville. It turns out, eyebrows are connected to the same nerves that cause a sneeze. So if you sneeze, when you tweeze, not that you need to tweeze, brows are beautiful in many forms, it's just a nerve signal mix up, no biggie.
Next, we head to the World Eyebrow Dance finals, where competitors are bopping with their brows in all kinds of creative ways. Reporter Flora Head is on the scene. Flora.
FLORA HEAD: Thanks, Harriet. So far, we've seen a lot of eyebrow raising to the beat, standard stuff. But tonight's final match up is between Browana Jones and Ynna Arch. And-- [GASPS] oh, my brows. Browana Jones is doing the double eyebrow wave. What we're watching is brow dance history.
This is amazing. I think my own eyebrows might be stuck permanently in awe. I can't believe it. Here it comes. Oh, my.
HARRIET BROWN: What an exciting way to wrap up our broadcast. Come back tomorrow, because if I'm still hosting, I guarantee another rainbrow of news. Thank you. And good night.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
ANNA WEGGLE: Wow. What a great browdcast. Fantastic job. Now, Daniel, what did you like about Menaka and Katie's Micro Rounds.
DANIEL: I like how both of the news reports were active. There's competitions and finals and popular things. I think both were great, yeah.
ANNA WEGGLE: It's time to award a point, but don't tell us who you're voting for. Have you made your decision?
DANIEL: It is done.
[BELL RINGS]
ANNA WEGGLE: Then it's time for our third round, the super stealthy--
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: Sneak Attack.
ANNA WEGGLE: This is our improvised round, where debaters have to respond to a challenge on the spot. Today, Sneak Attack is called Workout Challenge. Debaters, it is your job to talk us through a funky, fresh workout video all about your side. Tell us why we should try it and how fun it is. Debaters, are you ready for your sneak attack?
KATIE MCVAY: As ready as I'll ever be, baby.
MENAKA WILHELM: Yes, I believe I'm ready.
ANNA WEGGLE: OK. We'll start with Menaka. Let's hear how the brow gets buff.
MENAKA WILHELM: Perfect. So please picture my brows or your brows, whoever's brows you feel most inspired by, wearing an aerobics headset, so that's a headset and these brows are leading what we're going to call a brow bop class. We've got the greatest hip hop beats behind us. And we are going to bulk those brows.
So everyone with me? We're going to wiggle the brows together. And rep. And rep. And pulse. And now, up and down. So try up and down, and more reps, and more pulses. And just think really inspired thoughts about your brows. It's going to help them grow. It's going to help them become more powerful and more expressive. And you're going to be able to do the eyebrow wave with your brows if you stick with this program. So stick with us and you won't be disappointed. Thank you.
ANNA WEGGLE: Wow. My glasses just went for a ride.
KATIE MCVAY: [LAUGHS]
ANNA WEGGLE: I'll tell you what.
KATIE MCVAY: That is true. I was looking at my own eyebrow hair a lot. And I have to say, it is impressive.
ANNA WEGGLE: Amazing.
DANIEL: Could you teach me how to raise one eyebrow?
MENAKA WILHELM: Yes. That's week six.
[LAUGHTER]
Yes.
KATIE MCVAY: That felt like an empty promise.
[LAUGHTER]
ANNA WEGGLE: OK. Katie, it's your turn. Describe an exercise only the strongest of thumb wrestlers can perform.
KATIE MCVAY: Thumbs are important. Whether you're working in an office or you're part of the band, YMCA, you're going to need your thumbs. So this is something that can be done any day of the week, any time. All you need is your hands.
So what you're going to do is you're going to want to find a flat surface. And you're going to place your two thumbs atop it, so that they're looking at you, and you're looking at them, and you're thinking about how powerful they are and how powerful they will be.
Then you're going to use your hands as a counterweight. And you're just going to stretch those thumbs, baby, up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down. Soon, you'll be solving Rubik's Cubes in half the time. People will look at you, and you'll lift up cars using only one thumb.
And the world will cry, just because they're so thrilled to meet you. They're in awe of the power of your thumbs. And you will, in fact, you'll give a thumbs up so powerful, the entire movie industry will be back to 1970s levels of income. It's going to be incredible.
[LAUGHTER]
It's going to be incredible.
ANNA WEGGLE: Wow. I am sweating. That was so unbelievably specific.
MENAKA WILHELM: [LAUGHS]
ANNA WEGGLE: Wonderful job, Katie. OK, Daniel, think about which side impressed you the most. And award your fourth point, but don't tell us who you're giving it to. Have you made your decision?
DANIEL: OK, I've made my decision.
[BELL RINGS]
ANNA WEGGLE: Perfect. Then it's time for our final round.
MARLEY FEUERWERKER-OTTO: The Final Six.
ANNA WEGGLE: In this round, each team will have just six words to sum up the glory of their side. Katie, let's hear your six words for our fifth digit.
KATIE MCVAY: Little digit, big impact. Evolutionary scale.
ANNA WEGGLE: Wow. OK. Menaka, it's your turn. Give us six words for our two eyebrows.
MENAKA WILHELM: Just remember, thumbs, dumb. Eyebrows., wow. [GIGGLES]
KATIE MCVAY: Notice how the thumb didn't have to attack in it's six words? It just supported its own side.
MENAKA WILHELM: [LAUGHS]
KATIE MCVAY: I would like to take note of that.
ANNA WEGGLE: That's true. That's true. Now, Daniel, award your point, but don't tell us who's getting those points. Have you made your decision?
DANIEL: Yeah.
[BELL RINGS]
ANNA WEGGLE: Are you ready to crown one team the Smash Boom Best?
DANIEL: I think I am.
ANNA WEGGLE: Drumroll, please.
[DRUMROLL]
And the winner is--
DANIEL: Eyebrows.
MENAKA WILHELM: Wow, an honor. [LAUGHS]
KATIE MCVAY: Thumbs down. Thumbs down. Once again, the eyebrows stole the glory of the only evolutionary innovation that has kept us from not-- Daniel, those fastballs meant nothing to you? The thumb? Look at your thumb.
DANIEL: Not everything--
KATIE MCVAY: Look at what it's done for you.
DANIEL: --but I had to choose one.
KATIE MCVAY: Oh. Oh. Betrayal would be written on my face, but I have shaved off my eyebrows in anger at this decision you've made. A thumb in your eye, sir. A thumb in your eye.
[LAUGHTER]
ANNA WEGGLE: The drama. So, Daniel, walk us through this. Was there a moment that really decided things for you?
DANIEL: It was the Final Six that decided it. It was like neck and neck. And extraordinary digit, yes, but eyebrows, thumbs down.
KATIE MCVAY: So what I'm hearing is I should have insulted eyebrows. I should have gone low instead of going high?
MENAKA WILHELM: In every game, there's both offense and defense. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
KATIE MCVAY: Wow. Wow.
MENAKA WILHELM: [LAUGHS]
ANNA WEGGLE: Honestly, I loved Menaka's use of her dog. I was biased towards Menaka's argument, thinking about my own dog and his little eyebrows. And thinking about Menaka's dog's eyebrows, I wanted to see them. I wished this was an audio-visual format so that I could picture Menaka's dog, because boy, boy, boy, so cute-sounding. And I loved hearing about animals with eyebrows.
MENAKA WILHELM: Yeah. And Katie, I mean, I love my thumbs. I use them all the time. I thought that the beginning of your Declaration of Greatness, where you had a thumb war, was so evocative. It was cinematic. I loved the scoring. I thought you made a great argument about thumbs and how useful they are. And I think you did a great job. I was really honored to compete against you, a veteran debater.
KATIE MCVAY: Menaka, I felt very similarly. I felt almost the same.
MENAKA WILHELM: [LAUGHS]
KATIE MCVAY: I was honored to compete against you on this field of debatery, even though I have, once again, been vanquished.
MENAKA WILHELM: [LAUGHS]
[MUSIC PLAYING]
ANNA WEGGLE: And that's it for today's debate battle. Daniel crowned eyebrows the Smash Boom Best. But what about you?
DANIEL: Head to smashboom.org, and vote to tell us who you think won. Smash Boom Best is brought to you by Brains On! and APM Studios. It's produced by--
MOLLY BLOOM: Molly Bloom
ANNA WEGGLE: And--
ARON WOLDESLASSIE: Aron Woldeslassie.
ANNA WEGGLE: We had engineering help from Jess Berg, Juan Carlos Torrado, and Camille [? Comeau, ?] with sound design by Aron Woldeslassie. Our editors are--
SHAHLA FARZAN: Shahla Farzan
ANNA WEGGLE: And--
SANDEN TOTTEN: Sanden Totten.
ANNA WEGGLE: And we had production help from the rest of the Brains On! University.
ROSIE DUPONT: Rosie duPont.
RACHEL ANNE BREES: Rachel Brees.
ANNA GOLDFIELD: Anna Goldfield.
NICO GONZALEZ WHISTLER: Nico Gonzalez Whistler.
RUBY GUTHRIE: Ruby Guthrie.
LAUREN HUMBERT: Lauren Humbert.
JESS MILLER: Jess Miller.
JOSHUA RAY: Joshua Ray.
MARC SANCHEZ: Marc Sanchez.
ANNA WEGGLE: And--
CHARLOTTE TRAVER: Charlotte Traver.
ANNA WEGGLE: Our executive producer is Beth Perlman. And the APM Studios executives in charge are Chandra Kavati and Joanne Griffith. Our announcer is Marley Feuerwerker-Otto. And we want to give a special thanks to Austin Cross and Taylor Coffman.
Menaka, is there anyone you'd like to give a shout out to today?
MENAKA WILHELM: Yes, I would love to give a shout out to my dog, Hank, as well as NBA basketball star, Anthony Davis, a.k.a. The Brow. I don't know him, but think he'd appreciate this show.
[LAUGHTER]
ANNA WEGGLE: Incredible. And how about you, Katie? Any special shout outs?
KATIE MCVAY: I would like to give a shout out to my dog, Seth. And he had nothing to do with the program, but he's very cool. And I would also like to give a shout out to one Willy Shakes, also known as William Shakespeare, if you're not close to him.
[LAUGHTER]
He has thought up so many thumb-related insults. And they really inspired me today. And then since we're just shouting at basketball teams, shout out to the LA Sparks, who I'm a big fan of.
MENAKA WILHELM: [LAUGHS]
ANNA WEGGLE: Daniel, do you want to give any special thanks?
DANIEL: I got to thank my family, my mom and brother, especially for driving me out, my grandparents, who did the debate with me, and my cat, Lola, who always begs for food.
ANNA WEGGLE: You better give her some. She's hungry. Before we go, let's check in and see who Andy thinks should win the Star Wars versus Star Trek debate.
ANDY: I think Star Trek would win. I like all the characters. And I think all the different episodes are really cool and awesome.
ANNA WEGGLE: If you're between the ages of 13 and 18 and you'd like to be a judge, or if you're any age and you have an idea for a knock down drag out debate, head to smashboom.org/contact and drop us a line. And make sure to subscribe to Brains On! Universe on YouTube, where you can watch animated versions of some of your favorite episodes. We'll be back with a new Smash Boom Best debate battle next week.
MENAKA WILHELM: Bye bye.
KATIE MCVAY: Thank you.
WOMAN 6: (SINGING) Smash Boom Best
Oh, put through the test
Oh, you're the Smash Boom Best
Oh, better than the rest
Its Smash Boom Best
It's Smash Boom Best
MENAKA WILHELM: I would like to note that I typed all of my DOG without using my thumbs. No spacebar needed.
ANNA WEGGLE: What? [LAUGHS]
Transcription services provided by 3Play Media.
